Speaker 1: 0:05

Hi everybody. Guess what I'm back and how I have missed my True Crime and Headlines community. Hey, it's Jules Hi, and this is Season 2, Episode 6. And it feels so good to be back where I started. Y'all have been so welcoming to Jen, Thank you. She's been such a godsend of a friend and a business partner to me. We have so many projects lined up for y'all, but I know things have been a bit different here at True Crime and Headline, so thank you. Thank you for sticking with us.

Speaker 1: 0:35

I stepped aside a few months to finish production on my first long form investigative podcast, Missing in Heshtown, and I am thrilled to announce it peaked on the National Apple True Crime chart at spot 67 and on the National True Crime Spotify chart on spot number 44. We hope to continue to share Jennifer and Adriana Wicks' story. Thank you, everybody. Today's episode is one of the last of our interview series. We're jumping right back into true crime cases soon, I promise.

Speaker 1: 1:05

This guest, though, is absolutely a force to be reckoned with. Not only is she tenacious, she's full of fire, heart, perseverance and tenacity. She's an investigative journalist who is multi-talented, but it's her passion for finding truth and advocating for victims which drew us to her. Her name is Jillian Lauren and we wanted to share a bit about her before we jump into her interview. Jillian Lauren is a New York Times bestselling, author of a few very memorable memoirs, titled Some Girls, my Life as a Harem and Everything you Ever Wanted. And since you're likely here for true crime, you may already recognize her as the only investigative journalist to work closely with America's most prolific serial killer, Samuel Little. If you haven't seen the hit docuseries titled Confronting a Serial Killer, it's an absolute must. Jillian went on to write a book about her experience, titled Behold the Confronting America's Most Prolific Serial Killer. Jillian is on an advocacy mission to restore Samuel Little's victims' names, along with their dignity.

Speaker 1: 2:13

You'll notice that we just dive right into Jillian's experience navigating such an all-consuming project that was this documentary, but also more than that. How do you juggle being a mom to two young children and a wife to a musician, all while knowing you have to keep your phone on you every moment of every day and night, Just so when Samuel Little, the serial killer, calls you, you are available? We barely touched the surface of one of the multi-dimensions that is Jillian Lauren, and we hope to have her back to dive deeper. If you're unfamiliar with who Samuel Little was and, yes, was, he did die while in custody. You will hear Jillian recall when she had to go pick up ashes from the corner. She had to go pick up ashes from the corner. She is indeed referring to Samuel Little's ashes, which are in her possession. Jillian Lauren's websites, links, books and docuseries will all be linked in our show notes, but before we begin, I'd like you to know Samuel Little well. He confessed to murdering 93 women. Let's get started.

Speaker 3: 3:49

First let's talk about the documentary. Jillian, if you can just give me and Jules a little bit and our listeners a little bit of background about the documentary and what that experience was like going through that, because I'm sure how long was that process of doing the documentary because I'm sure how long was that process like of doing the documentary?

Speaker 4: 4:10

you know we shot it over a course of um. I mean we shot it, I mean over the course of maybe six months that we were actually shooting, because we weren't shooting all the time the crew was in New York. It's Joe Berlinger who now is, you know, just done that famously the Bundy and uh, the movie and the documentary. And also, you know, the reason I chose to work with Joe was really the effect that Paradise Lost, the series had on me as a kid. You know, when I was a teenager and I was like a punk rock teenager and there were these teenagers being demonized for being into heavy metal music, which was a thing then I can't even. You know it's like our kids are like, like we take them to Rammstein concerts. You know they don't have the same problem with the music that their parents, that our parents had, but Paradise Lost made a great difference in my life. So the chance to work with Joe was like a dream come true and the actual experience of working on a documentary was very up and down, because the thing is that you can't like produce there's so much about investigative reporting and citizen detective and like, like that is just patience and hitting a wall, and like you can't, it's not a performance, it's like a war, you know. So it just so happened that in the fifth episode of the documentary the cameras were there when I solved a murder like bottom to top very, very unusual If ever like that a reporter has done that Like that. Everyone was like can't figure it out. Nope, absolutely not. Cold case forever. And I just figured out from how well I knew Sam that he would sometimes think he made a right when he made a left. I just figured out it was a left. And then I found the crime scene and and it matched every single detail. And you know, I called Rick Jackson, who is Harry Bosch, the real life Harry Bosch, and I said I think a self to murder. What do I do? I mean, what do you do when you solve a murder? And he was like give me a chance. And called the Long Beach Police Department. Um, very, always, very good to have a retired detective who is a very good friend, because they'll listen to him. I sound like a nut, you know, but Rick Jackson sounds like the most respectable detective in some of LA history. And he called me back and said kiddo, sit down. You solved a murder. Oh my gosh, I know it was. It was truly one of the most remarkable moments of my life and it's there. It's there on film, so I'm really proud of it. I'm also really proud of the fact that my we were very.

Speaker 4: 7:36

The only thing I had control over in that documentary was my children. I was like they can be in it, but I need to approve the footage of my children. I was like they can be in it, but I need to approve the footage of my kids. Like that was contractually there, I mean, other than that I didn't have any say over how I was portrayed, but I feel like I get to say how my kids are portrayed, right. And so there's this beautiful scene of my son like saying mommy, I think you're really angry and it would be better if you put it on the page. You know, I like, I was just like well, you really bring it out for the cameras. That's pretty good, that's pretty good.

Speaker 4: 8:34

Um, and then also that my dear, dear doggies, my two Karen Terriers who are now with definitely not Sam who are now in the rainbow bridge yeah, we had for 18 years to have this glamour shot Beautiful like sunlit glamour shot and I'm like, oh my gosh, calvin and Peanut had their moment on screen at least. But really it was so hard, it was so hard and it was so hard, it was so hard and it was so interesting. I got to do things like go hang out in South Central with Rick Jackson and, you know, learn to play dominoes with the guys at Tam's Burgers who were like the old black men who lived in that neighborhood, which, by the way, is not. I mean, it's changed demographics entirely. It's almost entirely Hispanic now, you know, it's like to find the people who were there at the time, who might have known the person I have a picture of.

Speaker 4: 9:42

Um is extraordinarily interesting. Um, I find it less interesting with cameras up my nose because people are less apt to talk, is the truth, but, um, but. So that was a fascinating experience. I'm very proud of it and I'm very proud of the uh, alice Duvall murder solve. I really, um, it was. It's so infrequent that this work is actually gratifying. It's much more frequent that it's terrifying and demoralizing, you know, and annoying, and you can work all day and get nowhere and have your head on the desk. But that was like when it hits, it hits like a bolt of lightning.

Speaker 3: 10:43

Now, like looking back at that experience too, where are you at with that? I know, obviously you have the book and the documentaries out there for people to watch. Obviously, you have the book and the documentaries out there for people to watch, but what are you doing now? Are you still doing any type of investigative work? Or yeah, what are you doing?

Speaker 4: 11:02

right now, you know I'm still involved with the Sam Little case, you know. So I'm definitely still like working on some of those open cases, like working on some of those open cases and I'm always here, for, you know, I have relationships, families and my paperback just came out and then right now I'm doing my paperback, a tiny paperback tour, and you should look because the events are going to be really special and so while I'm doing that, I'm also hunting, which I realize is controversial. But I felt like I was really in a dark place because, you know, in the words of Nietzsche, I mean, when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks into you. And I spent a great deal of time in the abyss with Sam Little. So you know, when I was sort of like learning to come out of this, I mean I had to be there every single minute of every day for his phone call, minute of every day for his phone call that you know the documentary needed content. You know the the cops needed answers. You know I needed him to not get pissed at me like anytime. You know they're narcissists. You know sociopaths are narcissists, like, and they just like don't pick up the phone, what like? You'll be punished for weeks, you know, and like you really don't want sam little's punishment. Um, so, you know, it was like, well, you know, I was like a man on a wire for Look at that A little bit of emotion. I had to do a trick that I learned in high school, doing like musical theater, which is like when you want to laugh, let your emotions fall out of your feet into floor. It's like if you have to keep a straight face right. So I've always used I've used it in poker is in comedy. But, um, you know, like I felt the same way, like if you want to be fucking terrified, if you want to cry, if it's like this isn't about you, this isn't about the last moments of your life, yeah right, this is about you decided to take on some grand caper, you know, and make this thing visible. Like that was all I wanted to do. I wanted to write an 8,000 word article for New York magazine that made this visible Because it was an underreported story.

Speaker 4: 13:59

All they needed was three murders for an indictment. They got them, they got them off the street and then everyone just like let it lie. And the detectives told me they knew there were so many more murders. So it was like put a little heat on it, get the public interested, like bring people in too, you know, because these were people's family members. These, these are people who have been assaulted. These are people who care. You know there's some of them. It's people who care. You know there's some of them, it's people who are?

Speaker 4: 14:35

their hobby is to you know I mean they're very good natured hobby, as curious people is to look into cold cases. So I didn't really expect it would be five years of like Clarice Starling, but that's what it was.

Speaker 3: 14:56

Wow, and like you said, I mean I can't even imagine how, how much that took a toll on you, just your family mentally.

Speaker 4: 15:04

My family, me, they're still pissed. They're still pissed Really, like my 16 year old now that he's like getting more you know. They're still pissed, really, like my 16 year old now that he's like getting more you know and more articulate and and more of an advocate for himself. And he's just like how could you possibly have put us through this? And I'm like, well, well, let me tell you why. You know, because, like this is what your mommy does, right, you know? I mean, I dragged my 10 year old when they finally called me. I have his human remains and also that is. You guys have to wait for it. I can't announce it yet, but there's going to be a whole, another whole very cool exhibit, slash project, slash immersive experience around this. So just stand by, sign up for my newsletter. I can't announce it yet, but trust me, okay, you know, but I had to.

Speaker 4: 16:20

My 10 year old was was I think he was nine at the time was homesick. The day the coroner finally called me and said come up and pick his ashes up, called me and said come up and pick his ashes up, and I had to put my sick kid in the car and drive to the car and I was like this is a very historic building. I was like this is actually a very historic building in Los Angeles and, um, this area is super interesting, you know, because originally populated by Jews who came, you know, couldn't get. I'm just like aunt, he's just like this is real nice, mom, real nice. And I was like I took his hand, like his sweaty little feverish hand, walked him up to the door of the coroner's office office and took a big green tin of ashes. Wow.

Speaker 4: 17:22

And I was like this is my son, this is the, this is the lead coroner. But for real, it's like like, come finally get the ashes. I'd been waiting a year. It was a whole thing and wow, you know, and I was entitled to them right away and uh, uh, and also, there was no autopsy done on one of the most prolific serial killers in the country. So do what you want with that, um, but there was no autopsy done and I was called a year later to come pick up the ashes and, yeah, I had to drag my 10 year old. I let him get mcdonald's on the way home. I was just like I don't know, what do you want?

Speaker 4: 18:10

a kid meal and I can get gross fast food. Fine, it's like I have to answer more for the fact that I was unavailable. Truly, you know that I do for any kind of ashes. They don't care, they don't really care, they're so used to it. Like, every once in a while I'll dress up, you know, and do like the whole victorian morning thing, you know. I'll walk downstairs to the kids room like be like you know, zombie face, zombie face, all in vict, victorian, full Victorian morning. And they're like is something going on? Like, do you need something?

Speaker 1: 19:04

That's just mom.

Speaker 4: 19:06

It's just mom Once in a while she walks around. In Victorian morning, wear your musical theater.

Speaker 1: 19:15

Where did you? Where did you? Can you share where you went to high school? Are you comfortable?

Speaker 4: 19:19

Yes, I went to Newark Academy High School, crossmoor, livingston Mall in Livingston, new Jersey. We are Jews who came to this country and my great great grandfather was a straight thug, a straight bad ass thug. I'm not even kidding. There were teamsters at our satyrs. They started the ShopRite food chain. I don't know if you've ever been to Pennsylvania, new York or New Jersey, but yeah, we started ShopRite and then they sold the business and kept the real estate like geniuses. And anytime I want advice, I call my cousin Bill, who's 96 years old and doesn't care that I'm writing about serial killers or writing about anything else. He tells me exactly what to do and I listened to him. Oh, my God.

Speaker 4: 20:19

And he will deny to his death that his father was a straight thug. But I will tell you, fascinated with survival, you know and what that takes. And like you're saying, you know, like women supporting women, sometimes I feel that's true, sometimes I don't. You know, like women supporting women, sometimes I feel that's true, sometimes I don't, you know, and sometimes competition is fair. But I feel the same way, like I want to. I want to advocate for these victims, if only so that their names are known.

Speaker 4: 20:48

I know, and if you read my book, like there's, you know, like there is a full list, and if you read my book, there's a full list, it's the only full list I know of On the FBI, you can find who still needs to be found, but you can say everybody who is, all the cases that have been closed, all the detectives across the country who have been like remarkable, you know country, who have been like remarkable, you know, and like even the ones in mississippi who said like we sucked. You know and we're sorry, like I've heard that it's like like in 1987, we sucked detective white detectives, here in little town, mississippi, we sucked, you couldn't commit a crime against a black prostitute. What I found is that? What I found is that I've been surprised. I've been surprised by people, you know, like allowing me into their homes, allowing me into their feelings like cops, admitting to being shitty, you know, and having to take now responsibility right, for what they didn't do then, which was take a crime against a Black prostitute seriously.

Speaker 4: 22:11

And so, you know, there was a lot more hopefulness than I found like hopeless desperation, which is what you sort of feel when you look into the past of Sam Little. You sort of feel when you look into the past of Sam Little. But if you look into the present of Sam Little, you look at me, look at Beth Silverman, the DDA, look at Mitzi Roberts, the detective, the lead detective on this investigation, who is now having a whole HBO show oh, no, amazon Prime show made about her Renee Ballard. You, you know she's the next harry bosh and, uh, she deserves every second of it. She, I mean, she was the character who drew me in. So you know, there were so many women, there were so many people who cared. I didn't particularly get along with the FBI, but I respected them. They just didn't like me very much.

Speaker 4: 23:19

Well, but that's I mean at the end of the day, they don't want, they don't be observed. But I'd already dug my heels in. I'm like, no, sorry dude, I'm a journalist and I actually do get to be here. Yeah, I actually do get to talk to him. I actually do get to interfere with your investigation. Except I'm not interfering. I'm serving because you're held to accountability and that's my job. I'm serving Because you're held to accountability and that's my job, yes, you know. So I'm not going away. Yes, but I'm also not going to break your story While you still you know what and make it chaos While you're still in the middle of, like, a delicate interrogation process. So I feel like I did both. You know, I dug my heels in, I wouldn't leave and I also I didn't break the story until they did.

Speaker 3: 24:21

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:21

That's interesting, that's. That's what we're going through with our hush town. The case is in my town, going through with our hush town. The case is in my town and all the information that I know that I don't share because it all goes back to help, not hurt, because then all has to go back to the victims and, god forbid, we were the ones who ruined a chance at a conviction. I cannot Exactly.

Speaker 4: 24:44

That you know when. When they talked to me and said, like can you stop pushing on the cases right, which I mean I had. Like I said I got crucial details in at least five murders and solved one from bottom to top, and they said, can you stop pushing? Because every single time you get a detail that conflicts with ours, then you've kind of contaminated the investigation and we have to go and go down that path and sometimes he just goes off the rails and fucks with you. Right, and I knew that I could kind of tell the difference. So I did back off really and let the detectives do their jobs. And the details that I got were delicate and came from other conversations. I wasn't pushing on cases. It's like a difference and you can fuck it up. You have to be really careful. That's the thing I mean.

Speaker 4: 25:55

I want to invite people in and stuff, but like you also, you both have to stand up for yourself and your rights. And also I believe that cops are bringing in more and more civilians. There are programs in Canada that work amazingly, Like there are a lot of us who have some time. You'd be surprised we could help. You have no idea how many times I offered to just sit and go through records in the damn coroner's office. Like I'm like I don't care, I'll just sit there and go through records in the damn coroner's office Like.

Speaker 4: 26:34

I'm like I don't care, I'll just sit there and go through the files. Yeah, like, why couldn't you use college students to do?

Speaker 1: 26:39

that they're suffering in man hours so much they just can't pay for them. So if you have these people who are passionate and will likely eventually filter into your field, Exactly Like.

Speaker 4: 26:54

I mean I'm not saying use every nut case who wants to like hang out in the coroner's office, but like the college students I watched like a body exhumed in Whittier, that it was the like that they don't have like a huge police force with a tremendous amount of resources. So you know it was that forensic anthropology students who did the excavation. You know that makes sense. So I think that there could be programs put into place like that and, um, that's, that's really kind of my passion and I'm excited about it right now. I want to. I just I want to invite people in and not have that be like. You know, I mean I'm always a little bit of carnival, but this isn't really a carnival, it's always entertaining.

Speaker 4: 27:49

I mean we're entertained by the edges of society, we're entertained by the things we can't imagine. You know, we're entertained by the pieces of humanity that are like I don't understand them. Like everyone says to me why, why, why, why, why? You know, I'm like, well, I could give you like a four part kind of cocktail of why serial killers happen. You know, it's like there's this genetic component, there's generally an addiction component, there's usually you, you know sexual and emotional abuse in childhood. And also there's that mystery piece like you can have all those things and then not kill people for fun too, true, so you?

Speaker 4: 28:45

know, it's like, I mean, that is the magic cocktail and also most people, even who have that cocktail, don't go and start killing people for fun. It's really, it's next level. But I think that that next level helps us understand ourselves. You know that little piece of us, but why don't you just come up with like the dirtiest, horriblest, most awful question you can come up with? Yeah, close it out with, come on, yeah, go ahead, go ahead, jules, gosh, I don't even know.

Speaker 1: 29:30

Most horrible, awful, gross question which one do we go with? Well, this isn't in any of those categories, really, but I'm just, I'm curious when you said that your family was asking you why did you do this? You know it was hard for especially younger kids to understand at the time. Were there times that you were going to absolutely stop and quit?

Speaker 4: 30:01

Oh, I tried. Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, mm. Hmm, they're in the middle of the documentary. Like I thought, like before I kind of got used to the fact that I had to I wear cross body bag around my house Because it's like every time I go to the bathroom the phone would ring, you know, and, like I said, if I didn't pick it up then there was like two weeks of punishment.

Speaker 4: 30:30

There was actually, I mean, not many times I thought of quitting, but um, actually one time that I called and begged, I was just like let me out of this contract, let me out of this thing, let me out. Like you're gonna kill me, my family's gonna leave me, like I, I can't live with this, it's killing me. And um, welcome to hollywood, honey. They were like aw. And also I said, you know, can I have some mental help? Like would that be so unfair? I mean, my friend was working as a cinematographer in the Goop documentary. They did like a piece on depression. They had like 14 therapists on that set for everyone, for the makeup artists that's such an interesting piece because that's part of the advocacy too.

Speaker 1: 31:38

it's like I feel like that the ethics on all sides are. There's such a disconnect in the entertainment in that aspect. Sorry, there's a lot of animals coming in here right now. But also I was wondering, like for the mental health piece, and just I know that you're not even going into it as severely as you could or as intimately as you could with us Because of just hearing what you say. Like that sounds panic to me If I miss a call you can never take a breath and fully be present, because the consequences.

Speaker 4: 32:15

My assistant had to do it on the days that I, you know, I was shooting, like interviews and stuff, and she was like I almost had a heart attack. It's like you're caught. You're constantly a heart attack. It's like you're caught, you're constantly it's hyper vigilance. You're like you never for a second can for, like the minute you do, the phone's gonna ring when you're outside, like playing with your kid, when?

Speaker 1: 32:41

when was a defining moment where you felt like you could take a breath and put your phone down and not feel the panic or on edge or the hypervigilance in that? Do you recall?

Speaker 4: 32:56

When he died. You're still. Yeah, really. Yeah, I talked to him until the moment he died. That was their deal. That's the reason I'm the one who has the whole story. I said you will not die alone. I mean, covid was horrible and it was sort of a blessing because the visits at the prison were canceled so I didn't have to, like, be there every weekend, but I did have to talk to him on the phone so, um, but he was in medical. So the last time I talked to him was, I think, 10 days before he died, which was unusual. Usually we talked every day, um and uh, it was, yeah, the hyper vigilance is something like a still.

Speaker 4: 33:44

I mean the hypervigilance is something like a still. I mean the hypervigilance ended when he died. And then I recently almost took a case that sounded super interesting in the beginning and then I had a subject that was in prison and is getting out and, you know, just started to get very uncomfortable and stalkerish with me and like, call me 19 times a day and they're like it's all just kind of part of the thing. It's all just kind of part of the thing, and I'm not leaving the Sam Little case ever, and you know, and there will be another serial killer, I'm sure. But really, what I'm interested in is justice and advocacy for people who we assign worth in ways that I don't find acceptable. So I would like to advocate, you know, for if you'll forgive me, you know. Some equal treatment.