Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Jen with True Crime and Headlines with Jules and Jen, and welcome to Season 2. I know you all have been patiently waiting for the season to launch and I'm so excited to get it kicked off for you all. I'll be taking over the first couple of episodes of True Crime and Headlines Season 2 while my lovely co-host, jules, diligently works on preparing her investigative podcast, missing in Hushtown for launch. Make sure you save the date because Missing in Hushtown launches on August 16th, available wherever you get your podcasts. If you're following us on social media, I'm sure you've seen a ton of exciting announcements, and if you haven't, then make sure you go, follow us. I'll make sure I leave all of our handles in the show notes below. So, with the launch of season two, I want to share some exciting news. Jules and I have officially teamed up yet again to create a brand new media production company and you all, true Crime and Headlines is now officially under FireEyes Media. Our goal is to share stories that ignite, engage and inspire, so make sure to stay tuned. We have some incredible projects in the works and we can't wait to share them with you all, and if you're interested in following along on that journey. Make sure you follow us on Instagram. Our handle is fireeyesmedia, that's F-I-R-E-E-Y-E-S media.

Speaker 1: 1:34

But before we get into today's episode, I just want to take a moment one to thank you for tuning in and listening and loving True Crime and Headlines, and thank you so much for welcoming me as your new co-host with open arms. And, if you wouldn't mind, if you're loving True Crime and Headlines, please take a minute to give us a five-star review. It means so much to Jules and I. It really helps us in the algorithm, gets us out there and it allows other people to find us who would like our content as well.

Speaker 1: 2:07

But without further ado, let's dive in to today's episode. If you haven't already listened to the first episode in season two, I cover the case of Micah Miller, and that case is one we're discussing more in depth today with a very special guest. I'm excited to officially welcome Dr Joni Johnston. Joni is a forensic psychologist, private investigator and author of several books, including Serial Killers 101 Questions. True Crime Fans Ask Joni and I discuss the Micah Miller case and analyze and dissect the behaviors of John Paul Miller and the events leading up to Micah's tragic death through the lens of a forensic psychologist.

Speaker 1: 2:59

So I officially want to welcome Joni John for joining me on today's episode of True Crime and Headlines. So we are going to be discussing the Micah Miller case, true Crime and Headlines. So we are going to be discussing the Micah Miller case and, for those that haven't already listened to episode one for season two, I dive really deep into the Micah Miller case and we discuss all of the timeline and all the specifics. But today Joni is joining me and she's going to be high level talking about her opinions. Now, this is just speculation, this is just opinions, but as a professional in the field, we're going to be talking more of the psychological standpoint as far as John Paul Miller goes and Micah and how tragic this case is, just in general, because it's just so sad because of what the circumstances were and everything leading up to Micah's death. So, joni, I'm going to hand the floor over to you and let you kind of dive in and give us your feedback and your take on this case.

Speaker 2: 4:13

This case is so complicated in some respects. And then, on the other hand, I feel like I've read different versions of this case over and over again, when you're talking about toxic relationships and coercive control and those kinds of things. So I had really mixed feelings when I saw it. I mean, it is an incredibly tragic case all the way around and it suggests kind of things being passed down from generation to generation, potentially, at least in terms of JP Miller and his father, and those kinds of things. But I think what really strikes me is just how their relationship began between Mike and Jimpy, I mean the age difference, but not just the age difference, the difference in the authority position that they were in and also the context.

Speaker 2: 4:55

I mean I think one of the most terrible forms of abuse is spiritual abuse, because it's so confusing. You know, for many, many people, our spirituality, our faith, is something that gets us through difficult times, something we rely on. We feel like it's very, very solid. Our community is a source of comfort, strength, trust, and when that is not there, I think it can do damage in ways that maybe other forms of abuse don't, and so I think all those things really did stand out to me as how painful and how confusing it must have been for a 14-year-old who comes and joins a church and meets, you know, our youth pastor and you know really likes him, and just to see that relationship develop over time.

Speaker 1: 5:38

You know, I love that you make that statement, Joni, because I think that that's really important and maybe something that not everyone's looking at in terms of, like the abuse factor.

Speaker 1: 5:48

Spiritual abuse it's something that's unfortunately very common nowadays, especially within the church.

Speaker 1: 5:54

I've seen it a lot. But the fact that that was used against someone who was so young like Micah and you can see the signs of grooming, you know, you can see, if you look at this case and you look at the timeline, that Micah was very much groomed. But you're absolutely right, that factor of spiritual abuse is in there because it was used as a manipulation tactic to Micah when it comes to John Paul Miller. And so it's pretty obvious if you again, if you look at the details of the case, if you look at the timeline. And that's one thing that I mentioned in the first episode when I cover Micah's case, is the fact that she did meet John Paul Miller so young, at 14. And then eventually, I mean got married to him when she was of age, but I will make that statement. So no one thinks that she was married, you know, underage. But that whole process, that grooming, happened over a course of many years and ultimately resulted in a relationship, a very toxic relationship.

Speaker 2: 6:53

And I think your point is so well taken, jen, in that certainly the law defines certain ages as consent versus non-consent. We have to have it that way. There has to be some law and some dividing line that says, okay, you can vote when you're 18, you can drink alcohol when you're 21, you can drive a car when you're 16, or in this kind of thing. So we have to have these kind of arbitrary ages. But I think when you look at the history sometimes between individuals, it does show that there are so many more factors that go into consent in addition to age. So when you have somebody who meets somebody when they're that young and they're in a relationship and not a sexual relationship or romantic relationship for many years, but just in an intimate relationship in terms of this is a person's in a position of trust in addition to authority, and that kind of grooming starts taking place at a pretty young age. It's so hard to go.

Speaker 2: 7:42

Okay, what is consent really? Certainly, legally, yes, absolutely, the consent was there. But what does that even mean in terms of somebody understanding the dynamics and manipulation and those kinds of things?

Speaker 1: 7:56

As far as what that does mentally to someone who's that young and goes through that process, that grooming process from 14 to an adult, just what's your take on like mentally, what that can do to an individual? I mean, it must be, in my opinion, easier to manipulate by that individual because they've been groomed for so many years. But what is your take on that when someone that young is being groomed and then ends up marrying that individual and is in a toxic relationship?

Speaker 2: 8:27

Well, I think, a couple of things. One, it certainly sets the stage for a different power structure in that relationship, and I think it becomes very difficult to ever be on an equal basis when you start that kind of relationship. And again, not just in terms of the age difference, but in terms of the authority difference. I think the other part of it that's so significant is that it would certainly, I think, shape how Micah saw the world and saw relationships, and saw what was acceptable and what was not.

Speaker 2: 8:53

What was her responsibility as a wife? You know, in the spiritual context, in the religious context, because it's not just that she's meeting somebody who starts manipulating her or grooming her, it's that she's involved in an entire community who is supporting the pastor and, you know, admires him, supports him, and so there's all these messages, not just from JP, that I'm a great person, I'm a nice person, I'm a religious person, I'm a spiritual person, I'm a leader, et cetera. But she's getting that feedback from everywhere in her church community, and so I think it would be very difficult to question that as a 14-year-old, as a 15-year-old and even as a 23-year-old.

Speaker 1: 9:32

Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and I think, too, another factor that we need to make sure we're incorporating here is that Micah whether it was from the years of grooming and potential abuse maybe we don't know about, we don't really know all of Micah's background prior to her being 14 and her history with John Paul Miller, but she was diagnosed and we know this because it's documented. We know that she was seeing a therapist and that she was on medication, that she was diagnosed with mental health issues On top of that, plus dealing with everything she was dealing with while she was married to John Paul Miller because, again, this is all alleged and he's denying any claims, at least from what I've read. He's denying all of these claims, although a lot of these things are documented, things that he's done to Micah, everything from putting tracking devices on her vehicle, again allegedly following her, manipulating her, all while she was in the process of trying to get a divorce. So on top of that, you know, you have all of those things to consider, but then she's already suffering from from mental health issues. What is your take on that as well?

Speaker 1: 10:44

I mean, I believe that obviously it was enough to put her over the edge to make the decision that she did to end her life, and I know there's a lot of speculation on that.

Speaker 1: 10:53

I know her family believes that there was foul play involved, but unfortunately there's no proof of that. Everything as far as the autopsy, there was no drugs, alcohol, nothing in her system At least that's what the toxicology report shows and it was determined multiple times that it was suicide. So that's what was ultimately put out in the media as well. I know her family's still fighting, but at the end of the day, we have to look at the facts and I believe that this was most likely enough to put her over the edge, and I believe that this was most likely enough to put her over the edge. So what would you say, joni, in that you know, just leading up to, like the events leading up to Micah's death and everything that John Paul Miller was doing or allegedly is being accused of doing, do you think that that was enough to warrant her to potentially make that decision, with suffering from mental health issues already?

Speaker 2: 11:45

Well, there's so many different ways to go, you know, with your question. I think your question, Jen. I think there's a couple of things I'd like to say about that, One being that it's always very tricky and difficult when you have somebody in a very difficult situation to look at the mental health issues and try to sort that out. So I clearly have never met Micah, I have never reviewed her mental health records, so I don't know what it means for her to have mental health issues. I do think, as mental health professionals, sometimes we overlook or under-emphasize the importance of the situation in terms of contributing to mental health issues. You know, would Micah have had mental health issues, whatever they are, if she had not been in this relationship? I don't know, but I think we need to be very careful in terms of saying, OK, this was something that maybe she did have, this pre-existing, you know, condition that she had been diagnosed with earlier, Although you know she's been in that relationship for a pretty long period of time. But I think it is important, I think, to put that into context, Meaning, you know, certainly she was seeing a therapist, which I'm personally very happy that she was, in terms of I think therapy can be a very great thing and you get a lot of support with that. But I do think again that it's important to look at the context in which somebody has mental health issues. And it does sound like, at least for a while, that Micah was feeling very hopeful about things and was looking forward to the future, and this feeling like she was getting her life back. And no, she put out a very empowering video shortly before she died.

Speaker 2: 13:06

Now, in terms of the cause of death, it's so interesting because I know that there have been so many people, particularly her family, who has been very outspoken and thinking that there was foul play involved. And it's interesting, Jen, because one of my specialty areas is staged suicide, so deaths that are staged as suicides when they're actually murders, and I've collected a lot of data on that. And, you know, taking the mental health issues aside which I'm not, I don't know all the mental health issues that Micah experienced. There are so many consistencies in terms of the coercive control, in terms of the fact that they were getting separated, that she had just served divorce papers. There's so many similarities between so many of the staged suicide cases that I have collected and some of the facts here that I can understand why it would be very difficult for people to accept the fact that she committed suicide. I'm not saying that this was a staged suicide. There seems to be a considerable amount of evidence that it was not, that she died by suicide and that all the evidence that's been presented so far has supported the fact that.

Speaker 2: 14:06

You know, for whatever reason at that time, Micah made the decision that her life, that she no longer wanted to, you know, to live her life right now. You know at that time, so could you know what would have put her over the edge? I've thought about this so many times and you know this is speculation on my part, but the thing that keeps coming back to me is the amount of harassment that she felt like she was experiencing from JP, the fact that he had posted a picture of her, an appropriate picture online, that he was continuing to harass her. I wonder if she got to the point where she started believing that there was no way out, that the only way out for her, the only way she could really escape the situation, was by taking control of her own life. And in her mind, I think at that moment it meant exiting this world, it meant leaving this life, and that seems to make the most sense to me in terms of her making that decision.

Speaker 1: 15:03

Yeah, joni, I would definitely have to agree, just based on, again, you're looking at all the factors of this case and what we have evidence of we really have to look at is the evidence. What can we prove? It does show, like you said, that all signs are pointing that it was suicide, unfortunately, but it's such an interesting case it really is Because, like you said, just as a professional, there are signs that it could have definitely been a setup and that's what's so difficult. But, at the end of the day, the evidence that was collected, you know, by the detectives and doing their investigation and the autopsy, they couldn't prove that. So we just have to look at.

Speaker 1: 15:42

Okay, these are the facts and I would have to agree, I think that I mean, if you look at everything that has happened, if you look at the timeline, if you look at the reports, the police reports that Micah had filed, I mean, yes, she was feeling very hopeful, and there's evidence of that too on her social media profiles. She was very hopeful, she was moving on to a new church and a new congregation and that was wonderful. And it's just so sad that she really was trying to move on with her life and two days, two days later, after she officially filed for divorce from John Paul Miller, is when she chose to end her life. But I think you're right. I think if I had to give my opinion obviously these are just opinions yes, if I had to give my opinion on what actually happened or what we could say, pushed Micah over the edge. Again, I'm not a medical professional or anything, but just in my opinion, looking at the facts of the case, is that he obviously played a role in her decision.

Speaker 1: 16:40

I do believe that. I do believe his actions and things that he did most likely resulted in that because, you're right, I believe that she felt she had no way out. No matter what she did, no matter how much she tried to move on, he wasn't allowing that to happen. And again, that's just based on what we're seeing, and this is alleged. Again, we have to say alleged, because even in the police reports we want to believe it is John Paul Miller that was involved in all of this, but the name is redacted from those reports. So we can't confirm nor deny that. But we can all come to our own conclusion and I would say the same. I would have to agree.

Speaker 2: 17:18

It is such an unfortunate situation because I think that if, if micah had been able to hold on, you know, had been able to, to find a way to see past the immediate circumstance, which I think is it's hard to do, it is very, very difficult to do. I did a show one time looking at or interviewing people who had attempted to die by suicide and failed, just to kind of see what their life had been like since then. And a hundred percent, you know, there were people were talking about the fact that I'm so happy that I failed in parentheses failed, you know, my life has been so. I mean. They were talking about all the things they missed out, they would have missed out on, and yet they were able to talk about the hopelessness they felt at that particular point in time.

Speaker 2: 18:00

And that's one of the hardest things I think about depression and about despair is that it's almost like, you know, we've all had the flu and you feel so bad and it's like we forget that we don't always have the flu. You know we forget that. I felt better two weeks ago. I'm going to feel better again. It feels like I've always had the flu and I think sometimes depression and despair and despondency feels that way, like I can't remember what it felt like not to feel this way and, even worse, I can't envision myself feeling differently in the future.

Speaker 1: 18:28

Yeah, that's it and it's so. It's so sad, it really is, and I think that's so interesting that you got the opportunity to interview people that, like you said, have quote unquote failed and how they felt failing and still being able to move on and live their lives. And it's unfortunate because, you're right, some people are so overwhelmed in their life at that moment, just based on circumstances, and they believe that that's the best option. I truly believe that they do it with the best intentions. They think that that's ultimately what's the best thing for them at that time, and it's just so sad and so unfortunate. And in the case of Micah Miller, what makes it even more devastating is that she really genuinely was trying to move on with her life and she was getting there. But when you have someone who is manipulative and who is ultimately trying to cause strife in your life and they already know that you're struggling or that you're having a hard time, whether you have mental health issues or not I mean, we can even look at it just from a generalized point of view Somebody who's going through a rough time and going through a divorce and didn't have a very good marriage, that person alone is going to struggle. You're going to struggle, but then add someone who is, like you said, we can't diagnose. We don't know exactly what Micah had, but we do know, we can confirm that she was struggling with some type of mental health issues and play that into. You know everything else that was going on. And this is ultimately where we're at.

Speaker 1: 19:55

And now we're sitting on a podcast talking about her case and the one thing that I hope that our listeners get out of this is that covering true crime cases is difficult because you see all different types of cases and you see how it affects these victims Right, and sometimes it's hard to accept the fact that some of these victims do and their lives, and sometimes it is foul play and sometimes that's not seen and it's not found and it's really hard for the families.

Speaker 1: 20:25

Ultimately, at the end of the day, it's the families who are still having to move on and still suffering from that tragic loss and I think that they get lost in the mix of things. The victim's voice gets lost in the mix of things, because then everyone's looking at the media frenzy and that's what, ultimately, I try to do when I'm covering cases is really be mindful, be respectful, ethically report these stories. But I think it's also important to dive into the root of the issue, like the actual root cause and root issue here, and we're looking at toxic relationships. We're looking at, in this case, females or women who are in these abusive relationships and don't know how to get out, and sometimes they end very tragically like this Either they're killed or they end their own lives because they feel like they have no way out.

Speaker 2: 21:12

And I think also it's so difficult when you have this kind of potential stalking going on and potential harassment or alleged harassment going on. I think that adds another layer, but I think the other part of it, as a psychologist, is just to think about all these years of conditioning that Micah may have had and all these internal messages that she's developed about what it means to be a good wife, what it means to be a good wife. You know what it means to be a good Christian, what it means to be in this relationship, and having to unravel that and undo that, and that is a Herculean task in some respects. And so I think that it's just like you know many people will talk about when they leave a cult. You know people kind of go, oh, I felt. Nobody that I've ever spoken to has ever said I just immediately felt so happy because it's like it's like their whole world is turned upside down.

Speaker 2: 22:03

It's hard to make that transition. Is it better? A million percent? There's an opportunity for a different life, or you know, to make your own choice, to have freedom to heal, to do all these things, to not be under somebody else's control.

Speaker 2: 22:16

And yet invariably you'll hear that it was like the struggle within was so difficult After leaving this part of it, I had to deal with this part of it in here, and that can just be so hard. And there's also that transition period I think certainly there would have been for Micah in terms of this process of leaving, which is still ongoing, and now having to deal with all the internal stuff. And it's hard to imagine that, no matter how clear she was about leaving, that there weren't still messages to her about guilt or I'm doing the wrong thing or this is not what I was taught as a Christian woman, or all those things, even if she knows that that's not the right thing for her, that's not the right thing for anybody. How we feel about it can be very, very different from what we know. It's not the right thing for anybody.

Speaker 1: 22:56

How we feel about it can be very, very different from what we know. That's a really good point, and one thing I want to point out, too, is that those that don't or haven't experienced any type of abuse or manipulation or have been in a toxic relationship, judged for either leaving the situation and then going back or, like you said, leaving and still struggling internally and maybe even what we can call relapsing in a relationship where they may go back and then they may leave again. So can you give us a little insight, just on your professional experience, why a woman might go back? You know, even if she's in that state, like okay, I know this is not good for me, I know what I'm experiencing is not good for me, but they may go back. And I just want to make that a little bit clearer, because some people don't understand. They don't. They're like well, why would she go back? Why would Micah stay as long as she did? Why wouldn't she have left that relationship sooner? I think it would be really important to touch on that.

Speaker 2: 23:56

So a couple of things. So if you look at domestic violence in general, you know, we know, that nobody ever gets involved in a domestic violence relationship. They get involved in a good relationship that becomes violent, it becomes abusive. So oftentimes there's this, you know this period of time when it's a really great relationship and so people want to hang on to that. And even when it's bad, oftentimes there's that cycle we hear about all the time. It's somebody you know getting hurt and then the person's I'm so sorry, it'll never happen again. And here are some flowers and here are some gifts and I love you so much and it's me I'm a weak person, whatever that whole thing is that they love this person and they want to believe that this is the real person. You know, the real person is the person who I love, the person who's good to me at times, a person who cares about me, who's thoughtful, who brings me gifts, who not this person over here who loses control or who has an anger problem or whatever. So there's that part of it. I think that is rarely bad all the time. So there's that part of it.

Speaker 2: 24:54

In general, this dynamics that you can read about over and over again in a million different books and yet if you haven't lived them, I think it's impossible to really really understand that.

Speaker 2: 25:02

And then, when you add this spiritual component to it, and you add these religious teachings about respecting your husband and doing what this person says and this is your responsibility as a wife and to build up your husband and there's all these messages about what this means from a spiritual standpoint, that's a whole nother layer.

Speaker 2: 25:21

So now you're talking about getting out of a relationship that you've been in for a long time. You've been really in a relationship in terms of knowing this person for 14, you know, since you're 14 years old and you, at one point, seem to worship this person as a you know as a pastor and as somebody that you really looked up to, and you've had all these messages about how wonderful this person is and how you should be as a wife and how you should be as a Christian, and all these things, in addition to the kind of regular dynamics that we often see in interpersonal violence, and it just becomes so, so difficult and it would be unusual, I think, not to have mixed feelings, not to go back a couple of times and we know that people do because there is those. There are those bonds.

Speaker 1: 26:03

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, joni.

Speaker 1: 26:05

And as far as kind of the cycle of that too, like where you said a lot of times, even when the manipulator or the person in the relationship that's doing the abusing will come back and will apologize and will what they call love bomb, give tons of gifts and do all these things and promise it'll never happen again, and then they continuously go in this cycle.

Speaker 1: 26:26

It happens over and over again until it gets worse. But you're right with the spiritual and the religious factor, especially in Micah's case, because she was a Christian woman and she was so deep into her church and that was very important to her was her faith. It adds an extra layer which I'm sure made it even more difficult. And then what we can do too is kind of move on. In a minute I want to talk a little bit about John Paul Miller's reactions and things that he had said after Micah's death, even to his congregation as a pastor, which I think is just horrendous. But I can only imagine you know the things that he's saying as a pastor and making her look like this terrible person to the entire church congregation.

Speaker 2: 27:09

The other thing I just wanted to add before we move on, is because I think it's very, very important and that is a very practical reality that anybody who's in a violent relationship certainly in a physically violent relationship I'm talking about interpersonal violence between, you know, between two people there's also a practical reason people go back and that's because they're afraid of what's going to happen if they do leave. So I don't want to, you know, as a psychologist, of course I'm going to focus on those psychological reasons that we stay or that we leave or whatever. But there are very practical reasons why people do stay because we know that the person is most in danger when they're leaving a relationship. So sometimes people will get out. They're threatened I'm going to kill you if you don't come back, I'm going to hurt your pet, I'm going to hurt your kids, or whatever and so they come back for that reason.

Speaker 1: 27:52

So I think it's really important for me not to overlook that part of it as well, and I'm really glad that you mentioned that too. I mean, even if we look at the Micah Miller case there again allegedly, but there have been claims that John Paul Miller did threaten Micah and that she was fearful for her life Again, there's documentation that that's what Micah had said, and again, these are alleged claims. But it wouldn't be surprising and that could be another reason why I did take her as long as it did to to leave because she didn't feel safe to do so. So I'm really glad that you did point that out, because I think that is something that isn't talked about enough either. Is that they're fearful and they're afraid that either, like you said, their pet, their children, their family, someone's going to get hurt, or themselves, if they were to move on from their relationship. It's terrible, it's devastating, but it's terrifying to be in that. I mean, I couldn't even imagine being in that situation, so it would be.

Speaker 2: 28:43

I mean, it is so terrifying, I think I mean, having talked to victims and domestic violence, I mean and and just this reality that there's no way to completely protect yourself. It's so difficult to and live a normal life for sure. So you know, we all talk about leaving and you know, and there are safety plans and there are certainly ways to greatly reduce your risk, but it's you know, I think anybody will tell you that you know there's no way to be 100 percent safe, and so I think that there's a real world consideration here that I'm glad we are talking about.

Speaker 1: 29:11

Yeah, no, I definitely, I definitely agree, because you see a lot of these cases too, where the individual will take all the proper steps. They'll go to the authorities, they'll get a restraining order, they'll do these things and you know it's not in all cases. Obviously it's still important to put those things in place, but it doesn't always work. That's in their head and that, what if I can't get out? So it's another thing to consider when you do see a victim of domestic violence end their lives because they're in a situation where, like you mentioned before, they really genuinely do not feel like they have any escape or any way out, and it's just, it's so tragic it is. But moving on, one thing that I really want to kind of dissect is John Paul Miller's behavior, and obviously we're just this is just dissecting, we're only giving, you know, our opinions and, joni, I know you'll be giving your professional opinion.

Speaker 1: 30:02

I think his behavior was so odd after Micah's passing and I think this is another reason why the spotlight came on him and another reason why many people do believe that he had something to do with her suicide and that it could have been staged. But it's because of his behavior and the way that he talked about Micah after her death to his entire church congregation. I did watch it and it was horrendous. I was so taken back. My goodness, you are supposed to be technically her husband, because they weren't divorced yet. It was just the way that he was talking about her.

Speaker 1: 30:38

And then even the obituary the obituary that he wrote for Micah. It was mainly talking about himself and how he was such a great husband and a great pastor. It's not an obituary that you would write for your loved one, and that's something that I pointed out when I covered Micah's case too in the first episode, because it was just appalling. So what's your take on that, joni, as a professional seeing those type of behaviors, what strikes you in that scenario? I mean, it doesn't necessarily mean he's guilty of doing anything, but it's just strange.

Speaker 2: 31:12

Well, certainly the fact that he announced his wife's death at the end of a sermon was kind of mind-blowing, I think. I mean, it's hard to imagine a scenario where that would make sense. I mean in terms of if you cared about somebody that you would literally get up in front of your congregation. She is also a member of your congregation. She has been deeply involved in the church, you know, and wearing so many different hats. People love her right. So it's not that, even that this is somebody that the congregation wouldn't know, I can't think of any logical reason why you would not handle that very differently. So I thought that was incredibly odd.

Speaker 2: 31:48

I thought the fact that he immediately talked about it being self-inflicted was something that was also unusual, you know, from a practical matter.

Speaker 2: 31:55

Also unusual, you know from a practical matter, you know, when you hear about all these allegations if they're true, of infidelity, of him having a girlfriend and those kinds of things.

Speaker 2: 32:05

I mean, there are all these behaviors, in addition to how he's, I guess, behaved after the fact that certainly do, you know, raise questions about how much he did really love his wife, because that's not what we expect in a relationship where two people are committed to each other. You know, if you have problems, if you have issues, then you go get help and you go together and you work things out or you work things out individually. You don't use those whatever addictions or behavior problems or whatever as a reason to do things outside of your marriage, particularly if you're a minister. So I don't even have to look at some of the behaviors in terms of the odd kind of strange things that he said, to look at just things that he did, as much as he's not wanting to get divorced or talking about, you know, threatening her if she leaves, allegedly, or those kinds of things it's like. Where is the evidence?

Speaker 1: 33:03

that he really cared about her. That's what I want to see. Where is the evidence that he cared about her or he loved her as his, as his wife, when you're looking at these types of dynamics, these relationships? I mean, he claims that he hasn't done anything. That is being alleged, but your behavior is saying something different, and that's what I got out of it too is did you really love your wife? I mean, why were you married then? It's very obvious the dynamic of the relationship and it's very obvious that what she's claiming is most likely true Again, just in my opinion. But it is very odd. His behavior is very odd. Just everything that he did, and you're right announcing it during a sermon very inappropriate. I've never seen a pastor do that. I've never heard of that happening before. But it does also make him look guilty, and I can see why people are questioning that his involvement. You know how much was he involved in Micah's death, so it's not that shocking.

Speaker 2: 34:05

I also think that you know the fact that he apparently and this is again public information, so if it's accurate, then great. If it's not, then I'm basing some of my statements on that. But the fact that he allegedly went over to their house, you know, to retrieve these diaries or these writings of Micah's, and was very invested in retrieving those, and then her family has talked about in terms of what has been in those diaries, I think has really done a lot of corroboration of what other people had observed or had seen. It's horrific the things that were apparently in this diary that Micah was journaling about or writing about, and I think that's also been another reason why so many people have been reluctant to let this go. This idea that somehow JP had hurt Micah in some way because they're, you know, just all these things that kind of came out was just story after story in these writings of different ways that Micah did feel mistreated by JP.

Speaker 1: 35:01

Yeah, that's a great point and I think it also again shines a spotlight on JP. And again, if this is just speculation, if all of these things are true, that Micah was claiming and the whole grooming aspect, who's to say Micah was his only victim? There may have been others, that may come out in the future, but I've seen that a lot too in past cases. When there's a dynamic like this, where there's abuse or there's grooming involved, there's usually not just one victim, it's happened to others. You're right. I think that that's a huge thing with the diaries, because that proves and it corroborates everything that her family is saying.

Speaker 1: 35:41

I think everyone believes what has been stated by Micah. What reason would she have to lie or make up stories? But one thing I do want to point out is recently, just recently, I've seen in the media, in some news outlets, that JP has stated that he has all of this evidence that's going to corroborate his side of the story and that he does have the diaries and that it's going to blow people's minds, and I just don't believe it. I think that it's his way of trying to salvage his reputation, which I think is at this point already destroyed in my opinion. But who's to say there aren't more victims out there, or that something in that diary will open another can of worms of what he did, or kind of expose him even more so than he already has been.

Speaker 2: 36:25

Well, I believe and I know you've done a deep dive on this case already, jen, so you can jump in here as well I believe that his previous wife had made some statements about when they separated and were getting a divorce, in terms of at least some harassing behavior and some stalking behavior. So there's certainly some other allegations that he engaged in some similar kind of behaviors when they were getting a divorce. Now I don't know in terms of their marriage. You know what all she was alleging that might have happened within their marriage, but certainly when she was leaving the marriage it sounded like some pretty scary things happened to her.

Speaker 1: 36:58

And you're absolutely right. Yes, there are allegations with his first wife and I know it's minimal and I'm sure that's just to protect herself and her privacy as well. That's like. My whole point is there's usually not just one victim. That perpetrator has most likely done this before, done this with someone else and unfortunately in this case with Micah it ended so tragically for her. Luckily, the first wife got out of the relationship and is okay, but you know it's still.

Speaker 1: 37:25

It's such a, it's such a tragic story, and I know that her family right now is working on getting a law passed about domestic violence.

Speaker 1: 37:33

I know they're working really hard and they're doing a lot of things behind the scenes to honor Micah and her story, and so I just I really hope that there's something good that that comes out of Micah's tragedy. When you look at her story, there's so many women that have similar stories and some of them make it through and some of them don't, and I think it's just so important to continue to spread awareness about domestic violence and how like the tragedies that can come out of it when either you don't have the support or you have someone like JP Miller, who has a lot of authority or has a lot of power over that individual and you know they ultimately don't feel like they have any way out. And obviously Micah's family has been very supportive at least what they say and they claim they've been really supportive and they knew a lot of these claims but at the end of the day it wasn't enough to help Micah and to save her.

Speaker 2: 38:25

And I think that is such a tragedy, because I think most of us may have known somebody who's been in a relationship that we just looked at that relationship and thought this is so not good for you, this is so unhealthy for you, and yet we don't know what to do. And I think you know that's one of the hardest things to kind of accept is that we can't make somebody, you know, get out of a relationship, as much as we might want to or, you know, shake them until they get some sense in their head or all the thoughts that we have. You know, we're feeling that urgency for them, that concern for them. But we can all do something in terms of just listening or being a part of their lives. And you know, one of the things I tell people all the time if you are in a relationship that's unhealthy for you and you cannot get out, for whatever reason right now, just do not ever let yourself be isolated.

Speaker 2: 39:08

There are people out there. Whether it's on the Internet, whether it's in your church, whether it's with a friend, whether it's at work, there is always somebody outside of your immediate circle even that you can talk to, that you can get some support. From that you can get some support from. That's so important because I think when that contact or that other worldview, that other perspective is not there, it becomes so much harder to see clearly You're seeing one view in a relationship with somebody who's just providing that and making sure that you're only getting that one view. So it's so important. I think if you know somebody to be supportive and just say I'm concerned about you, what can I do? And if you're in that relationship to make sure that you are getting some, some support.

Speaker 1: 39:51

That's really good feedback, Joni, Thank you for that, and I think to your point about being isolated. I think that's when things get very, very dangerous and I think that's what happened in Micah's case is that she was getting isolated. Happen in Micah's case is that she was getting isolated and John Paul and his actions and things he was doing he knew what he was doing and that I think, ultimately was the goal was to isolate Micah. So she felt that way. Do we know whether or not that was his goal was for her to end her life? We don't know that. It could have just been. He wanted control over the relationship, he wanted to control her and it just ended the way that it did. But at the end of the day, it's still tragic and, like you said, there's always some type of support and I will make sure that I leave any resources that I come across that I know if you're currently struggling, if you're in a relationship and you feel stuck or you feel isolated, please use these resources. There's help available and even if you don't have family support or friend support, there's help available and even if you don't have a family support or friend support, there's options. There's hotlines and support out there for you. So I will make sure I'll leave all that information in the show notes below. This has been amazing. This has been an incredible conversation. I really really enjoyed chatting with you, Joni, and getting your feedback and talking about this case, Obviously love to invite you back to talk about more cases, because this is just so important.

Speaker 1: 41:07

It's important to kind of deep dive into these cases and to dissect certain areas, especially like this, like when you're dealing with spousal abuse or any type of abuse, or that women, and even men I mean everyone goes through some type of abuse. They can, they can go through some type of abuse. It's not just men, women, it could be children, but I want to continue to spread that awareness so people know that they're not alone and if that is somebody out there right now that's struggling, that they know that they have options and they have resources to turn to and that they don't need to end their lives. Because I know that that's again in Micah's case. That's ultimately what she chose to do and my goodness, it's just so sad. It's so sad. But you think of all the what ifs, what if, what if. But now all we can do is look at Micah's story and share and bring more awareness to it and I think, use this story which you are, jan, which I so much appreciate.

Speaker 2: 41:57

You know, using this story and her story to help other people, which I know that she would have wanted.

Speaker 2: 42:02

I mean, that's one of the last things that she did in a couple of weeks before she died was that video, which I'm sure you've seen, which was just.

Speaker 2: 42:08

It was so empowering to me for her to be talking about that, because she's talking about it in a spiritual context and I thought that was very, very powerful, that she's finding a way to say, no, you can be spiritual, you can keep your Christian faith and realize that the number one thing about that is that if you're a bride of Christ, that he's not going to want you to be in a situation like this. This is the number one thing that you can do, and I think that's so important, because that was such a powerful part of her life and an important part of it is for so many people. And so, finding a way to be in for faith or spirituality or however people think of that, and be able to be in that space and yet feel like it is never going to be a bad thing or a negative thing or a hurtful thing, or a painful thing or a limiting thing is so important?

Speaker 1: 42:55

And I agree, I think it is very empowering because at the end of the day, she realized that she knew that and I believe that she understood that it was being used against her and that's not how it should be. And I do agree, I think that's very empowering. Again, it's sad, it's a tragedy, but at the end of the day, I think Micah was a very, very strong woman and I think that, you know, she went through a lot but was at least able to recognize what was actually happening and so, yeah, I think that's an important piece and a really important key takeaway.

Speaker 2: 43:30

I think, at the end of the day, I think it is too, because I think what it shows is that you can have somebody who has been potentially groomed for more than half of her life and yet she had the strength and the courage to really examine that and re-examine that and realize that she was strong and that it wasn't a relationship that was supportive of her and it wasn't a relationship that anybody needed to be in, and I think that's such a powerful message.

Speaker 1: 43:58

If you're struggling today, just know that you are wanted, you are needed and you are loved. Thanks for tuning in to today's episode. I'll catch you in the next one.