Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everybody, it's Jen, and welcome back to True Crime and Headlines with Jules and Jen. I'm so excited to continue kicking off Season 2 for you all. If you didn't get a chance to tune in to last week's episode, make sure you go check it out. I do give a few pretty exciting announcements, one of which is that my lovely co-host, jules, is currently working on getting her new investigative podcast, missing in Hushtown, ready for launch. Missing in Hushtown, season one, will be available wherever you get your podcasts. So while Jules is busy getting that launched, I am currently taking over the first month of episodes of True Crime and Headlines and I wanted to do something special for you all. So I have a ton of amazing guests joining me for each episode.

Speaker 1: 0:50

Today, I'm joined by the amazing Nancy Schwartzman. Nancy is a director and producer of several Netflix documentaries, including Roll Red Roll and the Emmy-nominated Victim Suspect. Including Roll Red Roll and the Emmy-nominated Victim Suspect. Today we discuss the Midnight Order, as well as the Missing and Murdered database that was created by Dr Sasha Reid. We also discuss Robert Pickton, canada's most notorious serial killer. So, without further ado, I'd like to officially welcome Nancy Schwartzman to the podcast. Let's go.

Speaker 1: 1:45

Welcome Nancy to True Crime and Headlines. I'm so excited to have you on. Thank you for joining me today. So today we're going to be chatting a little bit about Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order. Nancy is a producer for the show, and so we're going to dive a little bit into that. And then, nancy, I want you to kind of chat about your experience one working with Sasha and the team and then working with some of the families of the victims, because I think that's really important to touch on. Not many people get the opportunity to do that, so I'm going to hand the floor over to you. Nancy. Can you give us a little rundown about your experience and tell us a little bit about who?

Speaker 2: 2:23

you are. Yeah Well, I am one of the exec producers and I'm also the director of the show. So I basically found Sasha through my research and cultivated a relationship with her, met the Midnight Order and then brought the show to Freeform. Was really blessed to be able to get to follow this team through multiple investigations over a year. So this show is really dear to me because it's rare that you find a group of people that inspire you so much that also you feel really akin to, and then you get to like highlight their work and do something different. And I think what we're doing with Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order is different. Like you don't get to see women in the crime space at the beginning of their career, like what does it look like for them to learn on the job and to grow and deepen, and also be like outside the system. Have law enforcement not always help them out, have them be like shut out of certain process, but like come together and do all this other stuff to really strong effects.

Speaker 2: 3:34

I am an investigative documentary filmmaker. I directed and produced Roll Red Roll that came out in 2019. That is about the Steubenville Ohio rape case. So really looking at this town torn apart by a crime. So early on I was sort of looking into crime, but in a different way, like what enables it? What was the whole town doing? Why did these kids do this? What were the adults doing? Right, it's like I like to look in places people aren't looking. And then my recent film, victim Suspect both Roll Red Roll and Victim Suspect are on Netflix.

Speaker 2: 4:10

Victim Suspect was also about like unearthing, this pattern of behavior in law enforcement that essentially arrests girls when they come to report their assault, basically say we don't believe you and they turn the victim into a suspect.

Speaker 2: 4:24

So, just like, again, that was uncovered by a young journalist. So there's really a theme in my work to sort of go on the outside and see what experts in their own way are doing, which is really what the midnight order does. So you know my experience working with them really humble, right, they have like all this amazing experience, but they don't like brag about it and I would try to like pull it out of them. I'm like, no, you guys are like experts, like you have like multiple degrees in this. Break it down for the people out here in the audience. You know what they think is just a normal way to think about something or analyze a crime scene or analyze developmental behavior of a serial killer is just so interesting. So really encouraging everyone to like break down their process and trusting that they'll understand like that's interesting for an audience you know was really a lot of fun, right. I like learned so much from them.

Speaker 1: 5:16

That's amazing. I want to go back rewind a little bit and talk about kind of your experience doing some of these documentaries and producing. But also what I love so much too is that it's very victim focused and victim centered, and I think one of the things that we're finding a lot in true crime like the true crime realm and podcasting at least what I see a lot, and to each their own. You know, everyone has their own preference on how they want to report stories, but for me, I'm very victim focused and victim centered and I think that the victim's voices get lost a lot in these stories. And that victim suspect I did see that that is actually one of my favorites because it shows you another side that you don't actually see most of the time, when women in particular are reporting certain things to authorities and as someone who was a victim of sexual assault, I know exactly what that was like, what that felt like and the fear of reporting that because you're afraid it's going to turn around on you.

Speaker 1: 6:15

But to my point, I just love the fact that that's a big theme in your work too is giving victims a voice and being very victim-centered, and even in Sasha Reid and the Midnight Order. You're seeing that too is giving victims a voice and being very victim-centered, and even in Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order, you're seeing that too, because you're working with the families as well and you're interviewing them and kind of getting their feedback and their take on their experience throughout this process with some of these cases and I've worked on a lot of cases, I've investigated a lot of different cases and a lot of the times the families don't even get a voice either. They don't get to tell about their experience and what they're going through during the process with a lot of these unsolved and cold cases. That's one thing that I'm so grateful for in your work is just that victim-centered piece. I really I love that. That was something that was very striking for me.

Speaker 2: 7:01

Oh well, thank you. I mean I'm sorry that happened to you. I'm also a victim of sexual assault and really wrestled with reporting to the police or not, and ultimately I decided not to. Just knowing that even if you're lucky and you get the kind of law enforcement officer that's in victim suspect Carl Hirschman like we have a really good cop in that film you still have, the system is so stacked against you and it's such a brutal process.

Speaker 2: 7:27

So I think what drew me even to look at crime and I think this resonates with the midnight order is also that there's an awareness as women that we are often the targets of this kind of violence, right. So I mean, yes, sometimes men are the targets and there are male serial killers or women serial killers that target young people or men, but for the most part the victims are women and the crimes are sexual in nature, right. So many of us have personal experience with that, unfortunately. So what I learned, however, is that also, with that experience, comes kind of a discernment and like a sharper understanding of the factors and behavior. In Roll Red Roll, alexandria Goddard, who is the blogger who kind of like blew that story open, was also a survivor, right, and she just like had it in her bones, like we know how this goes and you have hunches and you have instincts and you also have lived experience. So that brings a lens to it.

Speaker 2: 8:30

And also in Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order we're looking the last three episodes really look at the Robert Pickton case. That has multiple victims like 49 at least victims associated with it and all of those families. Not only do they have stories, but they also have information you know and they weren't listened to right. They're the word on the street. They're the ones who know the patterns of when their children call them or their daughters call them, that she calls every Thursday. She gets her check on Friday this is the pattern. She doesn't show up for her check, something's off, right and like. So many of the families told us like we went and did reports, we walked on the street, we knew who the good Johns were, right, and then everyone knew about the guy in the red truck. It's like the answers are also there If you talk to the families and like take what they're saying seriously and understand that a family member or a friend of a sex worker who works the same corners is going to have really good street-based information to sort of discount them.

Speaker 2: 9:36

Or you know, I think, how the families were treated in the Picton case, like they were a nuisance or not given information or respect. And I just think, like even in you know, episode two with Lois, hannah, um, in the Archie Veronica case, the Hannah brothers there were five of them. They were the ones who saw Lois last. They were the ones who said like she would not have left her purse in the house and left, like this is unusual. She must have known the person. They have data about the victim and they should be listened to. And this idea that, oh, we have to wait 48 hours before we do a missing persons, someone's a runaway, and if you're listening to a sister saying my sister would not run away, that's not what happened here. This is urgent. That stuff, you know, could be really critical to solving crimes if family members were listened to.

Speaker 1: 10:30

Yeah, I think that's a really good point too, because I see that just across a lot of different cases, even those that, in particular, sex workers and certain individuals who do certain things for work they're not taken seriously. But you see that too, just in regular cases where the families do have information or they know specific things and they're not taken seriously. And a lot of times that information years and years later comes back up and it's relevant and it's useful. And then it's frustrating because you look back and especially for the families, like if you would have listened to that information in the very beginning, when I reported it, when I first gave you my statement, we could have prevented a lot of different things or the case from going a certain way or going awry. It's sad, it's sad that it's just not something that's taken seriously.

Speaker 2: 11:18

But I think that if law enforcement, if we do make some changes and law enforcement does start taking that seriously right away and looking at that, those are really key pieces of information and it could ultimately make or break a case midnight order that I'm saying, like we do so much behind screens and we're in the data and we're in the missing and murdered database, but to actually meet family really brings them to life, right, and they're not just a story, they're not just a headline. But I think another really important component to my work is also shining a light on the perpetrator and the environment that allowed them to continue to perpetrate. Right, it doesn't happen in a vacuum, right? So Robert Pickton was able to murder upwards of 49 people over a multiple year period. Why? Who are the victims? Oh, they're the forgotten of society, right, they're sex workers they're indigenous women.

Speaker 2: 12:24

They're women that may have drug abuse disorder or substance use disorder, right? So that's targeting a group of people that nobody I'm putting that in quotes like cares about. You know, and we had journalists in the show saying if this had been going on on the other side of town, they would have been up in arms. There would have been police task force If one girl's missing, two girls missing, and the fact that it's really important to understand, like how did this happen? How did these women end up in these circumstances? How was it overlooked for so long by the news, by the cops like by the lawmakers?

Speaker 2: 13:00

That's how a crime flourishes and I think that's as important as getting into the mind of a serial killer. You know that's always a crime flourishes and I think that's as important as getting into the mind of a serial killer. You know that's always the take, which, of course, is fascinating. We all want to know the dark corners right and make sure we don't have those tendencies or we don't know anyone that could do that. But it's also really. It's just none of this stuff happens in a vacuum. So it feels really important to be able to show all the pieces that enable the crimes to occur.

Speaker 1: 13:27

And I think that's so fascinating. I think it would be a good time to kind of talk about the database and a little bit more specifics about how that works and what attributes you're looking at. For those that maybe haven't started watching the show I have already started watching the show and I'm hooked. But for those that aren't familiar with it, can you share a little bit about the database, maybe a little bit of background on how Sasha founded it or how that was founded and like what it's doing today, because obviously it's enough to warrant being on a show and all the work that the Midnight Order is doing.

Speaker 2: 13:59

Yeah, absolutely so, essentially. So. The show is based in Canada and they have different provinces and they have different ways of collecting data and information on crime. And Sasha herself as a grad student it's kind of a two part story. So her PhD is called the perfect storm developmental factors that lead to Homicide.

Speaker 2: 14:25

So she initially started out studying serial killers, studying, cataloging developmental factors like abuse at home, lead paint, mom drank while pregnant, all these. You know smoking and you know all these factors of all the known serial killers, right, breaking down all the pieces that made them who they are, and there's like 617 factors and it was a real dive into. Can we get into the minds of killers? Do we know what builds them and makes them? And ultimately, are there things we can do to prevent this from happening? And what Sasha discovered after years of research in her thesis is like there is no pattern, unfortunately. For sure, there are certain factors that can lead to an abused kid being really traumatized, doing bad things, right, and that's obvious and we know that kind of stuff. But ultimately you can have a squeaky clean person who comes from a loving family who ends up committing serial homicide, right, and it's like, oh shit, there is no, there's no clear pattern.

Speaker 2: 15:33

So while she was sort of like digging around and figuring that out and building this amazing database on serial homicide, she was really frustrated that there was no pattern homicide. She was really frustrated that there was no pattern. She was clicking through the news, you know, looking at headlines, looking at crime, I guess, probably researching stuff in the serial homicide database, and she stumbled on the name of a friend who she had gone to high school with that she discovered was missing and then later discovered was found dead. Sasha was so struck like this is someone she grew up with, this is someone she knew as a teen to see them as one of these crime victims in the headlines. It was so stark for her that she decided to catalog this case and this person. So she took the name and put it in an Excel box Like this is neat, what do I do with this? I'm so torn I'm going to put it into a spreadsheet name date, what happened.

Speaker 2: 16:29

And I think Sasha just loves to be able to do something if she's up late, if she's anxious about something or if she's distraught that this is going on. What could she do about it? So she started cataloging all missing and murdered persons in Canada and now there's over 12,000 in the database and it's built now with the Midnight Order together. And what's really interesting is that Canada itself does not collect this data nationally, so they collect it by province it's not across the whole nation and essentially, sasha and the team have hand built the largest public uh, privately built database in the country of the country's missing and murdered people, so they have access to patterns of disappearances, dates, geography, like okay, if I want to zoom in on this corner of Vancouver and these dates between 2001 and 2010, and I'm looking for a demographic of someone between 18 and 24, it's like goes on the map, you can see how many, you can see their names. It's really amazing. It's like world-class data. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 17:39

That's incredible. I know we can kind of see how it's being utilized via the show, but just in data-to-days, what does that look like with the database? How is it being utilized and is it something that's updated like on a daily basis?

Speaker 2: 17:51

Yes, it is updated. It's a living breathing organism. It's updated daily, I think. The team is always looking for patterns.

Speaker 2: 18:01

So clusters are key, right, where is there a cluster? And that's where data visualization is so key. Right, where is there a cluster? And that's where data visualization is so compelling? Right, you just have like Excel spreadsheet names blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: 18:11

But when you go to the map you can really see like, oh, there is a string of unaccounted for homicides in this corner of the city, or there's a corridor, you know, between two cities. What does that mean? So, now that the team is a little more on the map, they are being consulted with by community groups. They're getting data from community groups to update their maps. They're getting information, more information about victims and how they went missing or who they were and how they were found. They are talking in different provinces to different law enforcement about what their data can do. So really trying to share it in a safe way that doesn't compromise the data but make it accessible so that unsolved crimes can be solved and that patterns of perpetration, which is really important, and that's the prevention piece, so that patterns of perpetration can be identified more quickly.

Speaker 2: 19:04

So things aren't happening in the dark. It's like, oh no, another thing happened here. It's like, well, we can see, for the past five years it's happened in exactly the same way in nearly the same spot. So what do we know about that and what can we do about that?

Speaker 1: 19:17

That's incredible.

Speaker 2: 19:18

Yeah, so Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order. Season one is five parts and the first two episodes look at a sort of contained case where this woman that they named Veronica to protect her identity is fearful that her husband might be a serial killer and he might be responsible for a string of unsolved homicides in Ontario, the East side of Canada. So the girls look into that. They look into some pretty well-known cold cases. Two of them are solved by the end and then a few remain unknown, right. So that's kind of contained and kind of wrapped.

Speaker 2: 19:53

The last three episodes look at the Robert Pickton case, which is Canada's most notorious, largest serial homicide case in the country. He was a pig farmer in British Columbia. There's so many layers to this case. Upwards of 200,000 pieces of evidence were collected. It's a large farm, there were multiple people coming and going over many years and multiple victims. So it raises a lot of really important questions like how on earth did one person get away with all of this by themselves? That doesn't add up. There's unidentified male DNA and identified male DNA all over the farm, mixing with victim DNA, right, and like what does that mean? So those are compelling questions that can be answered if the evidence is looked at again.

Speaker 2: 20:49

However, the RCMP, which is the police jurisdiction on that case, has started destroying evidence related to the case, which is very strange because it is not an old case, it's only 24 years old, it's not 100 years old, it's not 50 years old. The series goes and talks to lawyers and cops and journalists who are involved saying the jury convicted him of second degree because they were not convinced he acted alone. The Picton case he was put away for and charged with six. That was clear to the prosecution. That was a slam dunk. There were 20 other victims attached to him but they just stayed the charges. And I didn't know what stayed meant. Stay is a temporary hold or drop of charges, but it is supposed to be temporary. It means okay, we're going to pause, we're going to get them for these six, then we'll go back and reopen these 21 cases and they just dropped them permanently and started destroying evidence. So what's in that evidence? Who else is in the evidence? Sasha has a DNA map of where male DNA was found, moving evidence around after Robert Pickton was in prison. So at the very baseline it seems like collusion or witness to a crime and not doing anything about it was involved and like there's just so much that seems to be hastily like wrapped up, we're wrapped up, we want to lock it away of other people being involved, and this is not just the midnight order saying this and there is like witnesses to speak to that. So so for us at the at the end of season one, at the end of the Picton case, there's a lot more to go there, so we're hoping we get a season two. The show's already encouraging tips, like we're getting a lot of tips about people's personal experience, and now that the Picton episodes are rolling out, I think more tips are going to come in about the case Photographs.

Speaker 2: 22:52

They threw big parties. So the Picton brothers had a pig farm, which is in itself disgusting, I'm sorry. It's like it's just like, oh, the dirtiest kind of farm there is, and they're also known to be useful in body disposal pigs. They're also known to be useful in body disposal pigs, and so there was a lot of unidentified male DNA in there too, not just like on the grounds, but also like in the land where the pigs were. So who knows what was going on there.

Speaker 2: 23:24

So there's a pig farm, there's a salvage, and then a little ways away where Robert's brother, david, lives and works, was a big party venue called Piggy's Palace where they threw huge parties with like hundreds of people and like they were rough. It was like Hell's Angels and kind of a biker vibe and music and reports this is well reported that these parties were like rough and tumble, kind of scary, not like, oh, a neighborhood party I'm going to roll in. Sometimes they did day events and the mayor would come and it was cleaned up, but by nighttime things were, like you know, a little rough. So I'm saying that because a lot of people were at those parties, so they're just like eyewitnesses who have come forward to us anonymously and might continue to come forward when the show gets out and the storyline gets out. So right now it's a five-parter and we're really hoping I mean there's so much to continue to explore and there's a lot of cases already underway that we are able to share a second season or even third season.

Speaker 1: 24:27

That's amazing, that's exciting. I'm looking forward to future seasons season. That's amazing, that's exciting. I'm looking forward to future seasons. I'm really curious too to see what other cases and to see how the database evolves as well. I just want to kind of revert back to when exactly did Sasha start the database, like how long ago was that? How many years has it been developing?

Speaker 2: 24:46

It's been developing, I think about. That's a great question for Sasha. I don't want to misquote, but I believe it started in 2018. There is movement to enhancing some of the capabilities with AI, obviously, and like machine learning and stuff like that. So it is really developing and the key factors are making it accessible, but also keeping the data clean. So you don't want to like open source it and have everyone just like log in and throw things into it. So it's really about how can the data also communicate with community while preserving anonymity and privacy and maintaining the integrity of the data. But it has grown quite a bit and there's interest in like syncing up different relationships between and I am not a data expert at all but different factors and if you sync them up and sort of run an algorithm, seeing what kind of information you get.

Speaker 1: 25:42

Well, I want to move forward and talk a little bit about just kind of your experience in the production process of Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order and even you. We can talk a little bit about your experience too with your other documentaries and things you've produced. But just from your perspective and your experience, what is that like? Like, what do you as a producer kind of go through from start to finish when you're in the midst of producing one of these documentaries or shows?

Speaker 2: 26:11

Well, when you're working in Canada, be prepared for the cold. It's freezing. My friend was watching the show just thinking, oh God, nancy must have been so cold. I know I'm speaking to you from Chicago, but it's a different world up there. Yeah, I mean, the process for me is, I find, either like there's a couple of things I look for when I get started either really compelling characters or people doing really interesting stuff who want to share what they're doing.

Speaker 2: 26:43

And I'm especially drawn to like women working outside the system, lending their tools and their insights to problem solving and crime solving. So I'm usually generally attracted to like the person. And then I get into their methodology and it's like is their method interesting? Like what, what is it? And what was exciting about the midnight order is like, oh, we're going to watch people do this for the first time. It doesn't mean they're total newbies, but they are learning as they go and I think that's super interesting. Like I love working with younger women. I love that Sasha mentors the group at the start. You know she's really kind of like bringing them in, teaching them her skills. This is her database. Watching them all really grow is part of it too.

Speaker 2: 27:31

So, as a producer. You know I'm a director, right, so documentary I produce as well, because we always have to do a lot of different things. But the producing part of Sasha Reed for me was like getting the show off the ground was saying, like this is a show, look at these amazing women their database is out of is incredible. Here are the factors that, like, really make this group of young people really stand out. So the producing side of that was creating the vision and really convincing people that there is a show there.

Speaker 2: 28:03

And then as a director, I craft the look of the show Like I want it. It's a crime show, obviously, but I want it to feel more young adult. I want it to feel, you know, have color. This is like feminine, this is female. This is bad-ass, you know. So, canada, sweeping landscapes, of course, like the nature, the trees. That's all part of it, the mystique of that. But also I don't want things to be dark and cold and gray and blue, like. I want like pops of, like bright color, to invite people in and to have other women watch this and be like. Those women are fucking cool. Number one they all get to hang out with each other, which is so fun. They get to dig in and have a process. So learning what Sasha's methodology was and then translating that into a show structure was really interesting, definitely challenging.

Speaker 2: 28:56

A five part show is different than a 90 minute feature film, but in all of my films I love to dig into process. How does your mind work? How are you attacking this problem? What is the problem? Let's go back, see the whole thing. What are the pieces of it? And then how are we going to attack it?

Speaker 2: 29:13

Another thing that is really important to the work I do as a director in this crime space is building out I call it like the ecosystem of this particular crime, like who are the players? Right, who was the whistleblower? Who was the cop that has things to say about how that went? You know who was the cop that says everything was great, no problem here. You know you need both. Right, you need the cop. That's like we did our job and you need the cop to be like oh man, here's the stuff that could have been done better. I always love to hear from journalists what were you reporting on? What caught your eye about this story? What was the moment that told you, wait a minute? We got to tell. We got to put this story in the paper right, because they're kind of a tipping point actor, like what makes it hit the news.

Speaker 2: 30:02

Lawyers are really key because if a crime goes to court, then you have the lawyers who work with the families, or the lawyers who try to prosecute the perpetrators, or the lawyers who defend, or the state. Why did the state choose to only go after six charges? That's terrible. What does the lawyer for the families have to say? So I think when you really build out the community around the crime, then you start to really understand what happened here and who was impacted and what could have been different. And then there's the families, of course, and the families talk about the process and they talk about the victim. They bring the victim to life. So I learned so much.

Speaker 2: 30:42

Like in victim suspect, we had a journalist who was helping to connect lawyers that eventually brought a cop expert to one of the victim's trials to help her get exonerated. So there's a way that there's this like chain effect that, like a film or a show, can hold all the people who deeply care about this particular crime or issue and know about it and have the expertise, who wouldn't all necessarily be all together in the same place. They wouldn't have that connection. But if you can bring them together in an organic way, then all of a sudden you have momentum to solve a crime, to exonerate a falsely accused victim, right, which is what happened in Victim Suspect and in the case of Sasha Reid and the Midnight Order bringing a former whistleblowing cop in with an attorney, with two different attorneys and a journalist. All of a sudden it's like boom, we have a tip, now the Midnight Order can go to these journalists. Now we have this ex-cop who has information adding to the tips.

Speaker 2: 31:44

It just creates momentum in a really compelling way. So I love figuring out how to draw the picture of everybody who should be involved interviewing people and you know the journalist name, checks the cop and then later the cop mentions the journalist and you're like, boom, I've talked to all the right people and they're all like in conversation through this show. So to me that's that stuff is like really cool and really important. It's like learning who the players are outside of just the murderer. You know what I mean. Like it's like a whole world is affected by a crime. So yeah, building that out to me is really compelling.

Speaker 1: 32:30

And you know one thing I do want to ask, just as someone who's kind of in the realm, in the true crime realm, how does it affect you when you're directing, you're producing? I mean, for me, I know that it can take a toll emotionally and mentally, because one you're hearing these stories, you're, like you said, basically building a map out of what the story is and you're including all these people. But just from your experience, how has it affected you during the process? Does it get emotionally taxing as you're going through this and listening to these stories?

Speaker 2: 33:14

and having to work on some of these cases and interviewing all these different people, in my soul that holding space with integrity for a victim who wants to tell their story and the midnight order as they take in a victim's story can be transformative and healing, and I've heard that from a lot of people I've interviewed that like the interview, the listening and being witnessed is like healing for them. So it's truly like an honor to get to do it. Every time I get to do it, I do a lot of self-care because it is really gutting, you know, and like meeting the families, it is an honor to sit with them through that and really deeply understand what this stuff does to people. I think it makes me a better filmmaker and my job is to take the stories, honor the stories, do my best job tell a gripping story, tell a compelling story, keep people tuning in, make it visually beautiful, you know, so that people give a shit. You know my job is to make people care and you do that by making a good film and you do that by making a good show. So that's the truth, right? So there's nothing frivolous about making sure the music right. So there's nothing frivolous about making sure the music is awesome. There's nothing frivolous about making sure that the lenses we're using look great. It's like all in service of telling a good story, so that we're honoring these victims, right. So for me, when I see an interview on other shows that look terrible, I'm like so angry because it doesn't honor the audience and it definitely doesn't honor the victim. So the aesthetic level is really important to me. It's like that is deserving. We want people to look and really take it in and stay. There's a lot of tragedy.

Speaker 2: 35:00

So, yeah, I mean, especially in the Picton story, the people who were targeted were on the streets and really struggling in ways that I don't think most people know. I don't know if you know Los Angeles, but we have a skid row area. Look, it's warm here. So people end up here and then they live on the streets, right, and we all drive past that, we all see that and then don't see it. Nobody wants to see it. Every single person has a story and I have to say, after what I did with the Picton story, we were filming in the downtown East side, which is a lot like Skid Row at three o'clock in the morning and alleyways.

Speaker 2: 35:34

I mean like I film like hero shots and we film nighttime stuff all up and down the streets. And it's made me drive around Los Angeles with a different lens, really seeing my neighbors, knowing how incredibly vulnerable they are. Right, because these are the people that can be targeted, so it's hard to take it all in. I mean it like really is, but it's. I mean that's my job, right, if I wanted to do something else, I would do something else, and I think anyone directing in the space needs to bring like their full heart and their full integrity to absolutely make the best show they can, but to also make sure you're honoring what it is you're seeing and even just the feel, the look, it makes a difference and I can totally relate.

Speaker 1: 36:25

Our listeners already know I have my own investigative true crime podcast as well, and it's very much storytelling and documentary style. So you add the music and you're adding all of those things to tell the victim's story and it is important because it draws people in. You want them to feel something, so I think that's really important to mention too. As just somebody who is a producer, who is a director and has that experience. I do want to talk a little bit more about you, Nancy, and what you're working on right now. What other projects do you have going on? And I want to give you the opportunity to brag a little bit. You are up for a couple of Emmys. Is that right For one of your shows? So tell us a little bit about that, because that is amazing. Oh, thank you.

Speaker 2: 37:08

Yeah well, we are incredibly excited. Victim Suspect, which premiered last May on Netflix, is nominated for three Emmy Awards, which is incredible. It's nominated for Best Outstanding Investigative Documentary so Best Doc. It's nominated for best outstanding investigative documentary so best doc. It's nominated for outstanding direction so that's amazing. And outstanding research, which is definitely the work of the journalist who gathered data for many, many years. So I love that. It's kind of like honoring the film itself, my vision, the director's vision for the show and the research, so that's awesome. Victim Suspect you can absolutely find it on Netflix.

Speaker 2: 37:48

It was such a joy and a pleasure to call the young women who were part of the film and tell them that we're nominated for three Emmy awards. It doesn't take away what they went through, but it's like so positive. And I remember when we premiered at Sundance and I remember that girls were really scared. They had experienced a lot of online bullying because they had both been assaulted in different instances and then their mugshots were splattered all over the internet when they were accused of being criminals, right, so they lost their anonymity, so they actually were violated as rape victims and then traumatized by that and they were so scared and I remember saying like, look, I'm not a journalist in the traditional way so I don't have to say, oh, I'm objective. You know I'm like no, I'm not objective. I'm so fucking angry on your behalf and I am going to make sure we make a film that makes people so angry on your behalf about what happened to you. I promised them standing ovations at Sundance, which they got. I promised them I'm going to get you guys to the white house, which our campaign got. And the attention the film got, absolutely tidal wave, erased all of the negative bullying for them online. So I said we, we can't like take it away, but we can have the final word on what happened. And that was the same with roll red roll that you know the stupid bill ohio story had been out and one of my protagonists had been shamed and bullied and all this stuff. I said we are going to make the final word on this case. Like I'm going to research it. It's going to be airtight. You know victim suspect was airtight. Sasha Reed in the midnight order is airtight, right, so you can't fight what we're putting on screen because it's double verified and it's gone through teams of lawyers Like it's tight and it means on some level it's the final word through teams of lawyers, like it's tight and it means on some level it's the final word. Right, if you do it well, then you get the last word, unless something massive happens that changes everything that's you know to brag about. So Victim Suspect has three Emmy nominations. We also won the RFK Human Rights Prize and we were nominated for a Critics' Choice Award, which is great. So the film's done really, really well.

Speaker 2: 40:04

So other projects I'm working on I am absolutely developing, with the Midnight Order, several storylines to be chasing that we will not say anything about, really A probably likely cross-border work kind of dip into the United States, because A there's a lot of crossover right. A border is just a border. There's like stuff going on on both sides and a couple of different places that lend itself to Canadian-US collaboration. Also, the US releases a lot more information than Canada. Canada really holds back all of their documents. It's really a challenge. So working south of the border from a Canadian perspective feels really exciting. So we have a bunch of stories to look at there.

Speaker 2: 40:49

For the Midnight Order, I'm also developing a series about a string of unsolved in a warmer part of town of the country, trying to get that off the ground. It's also kind of this other story is sort of like a critique or it's like the beginning of true crime in a sense Like this this set of crimes was the dawn in time to sort of analyze how that has changed, while also shining a light on some pretty crazy stuff that was going on. And then I have a different project. That's very different, kind of a grief based project, looking at people grappling with loss, but in a really transformative way. So it's not sad, it's, it's. I mean, it is, but it has sort of like a transformational outcome. That's that's what will happen. And then I'm up for a bunch of stuff that I'm not building myself. So I'm super curious what it's like throwing spaghetti at the wall where we will be. Some are kind of a little more sports driven, yeah, so just sort of character driven interesting projects, yeah.

Speaker 1: 42:05

That's amazing. Well, thanks so much for sharing all of that. I'm excited to see what else you do, nancy. I'm excited to continue watching Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order and to see how it continues to evolve, and I'm excited for future seasons Hopefully there's a lot more there to unpack, because I know it's going to be good. I know it's going to be really, really good. I'm excited, and especially knowing that you're working on crossing over into the US, like that was something that I was going to ask, so you covered on it. There's so much there too, like within the US, and I'm just curious. One other question, before I kind of move along, is just in terms of the stories that you do tell, or the ones that you do take on, how do you determine I'm sure you get so many of them that come in how do you determine which ones you actually take on and bring on the show?

Speaker 2: 42:55

Yeah, I mean that's a great question and that's definitely a collaboration with Freeform and Hulu, right? So I really just respect how well Freeform knows their audience. They really, really, really know their audience well, same with Hulu. So what are the stories that are going to resonate? What feels potentially like we could solve it or get close? What are outcomes? So definitely also like, what's the who, what, where, when? What kind of documentation do we have? What kind of access do we have?

Speaker 2: 43:26

And it's kind of a funny tension because for me, the project I'm trying to get off the ground separately, like there's so much blockading getting it which just makes me want to try more, you know. So when something's like, oh, we have all the information and everyone will talk to you and no problem, like it's just not as interesting. It's like when the doors are closed is when you want to kind of like push them open. In terms of citing on cases with Sasha Reed, it's sort of like do things add up? And the midnight order really digs into people's backgrounds if they're reporting on something. Is this legitimate, is this accurate, is there something here? Is there documentation, are there witnesses, stuff like that. And then really working with Freeform, hulu to determine what they think is going to land and resonate and then having that dialogue and to sort it out.

Speaker 1: 44:13

That's amazing. How can our listeners keep in touch with you? You can leave all of your handles in the show notes below, but I know our listeners are going to want to connect with you. They're going to want to follow you on your journey and follow along on your future projects.

Speaker 2: 44:27

Awesome. Well, yeah, so for sure, for listeners who love the show, we are on, you know, free form on Tuesday, hulu. On Wednesday, we also have this amazing five part podcast that's on ABC podcasts, which is sort of inside the midnight order. Going behind the scenes, my handle on Instagram is fancy Nancy NYC, so I'm there. It's private because there are definitely weirdos out there, but if you hit me up and it's like, oh, I get you, like I let, I definitely let people in. I just like have a little bit of a filter process. If you love the show and love that there is a team of young women doing amazing work, please go to IMDB, to the Sasha read in the midnight order link and leave us an awesome review. We have noticed, although we have great reviews, a couple like in cell bros, basically telling like, oh, these girls don't do any you know, whatever, whatever it is oh, these girls don't do any, you know, whatever, whatever it is.

Speaker 2: 45:26

So I think like we need to show some big love, that you love watching women in process, that you love that this is a kick ass team of like female investigators. The Midnight Order has socials on TikTok and Instagram and all that stuff, so find us there and keep in touch with me. I also have a website it's MsNancySchwartzmancom, so you can shoot me a note there if you want to talk to me about anything. That contact is wide open and I get a bunch of stuff there, so I love hearing from people through the website also.

Speaker 1: 45:54

Well, I think we can kind of wrap it up here, nancy, but I want to thank you so much for your time. Thank you for coming on and chatting with me today. I'd love to have you on in the future, too and talk about future projects, because you're just doing the damn thing and I love it. I love it. So, but again, thank you so much, nancy. I'll make sure I put all of the ways to contact Nancy and the ways that you can watch Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order, as well as all of the other documentaries and films and things that Nancy has worked on, in the show notes below. Thank you again, nancy. I'm excited to see what you do. I'm really happy for your success as well. Congratulations on the Emmys. That's incredible. I mean, that's definitely something you should be bragging about, so we definitely want to celebrate with you as well. Amazing. Well, thank you so much.

Speaker 2: 46:42

Forgging about, so we definitely want to celebrate with you as well, amazing Well, thank you so much for having me. It was really great to talk to you.

Speaker 1: 46:47

Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode. Make sure you check the show notes for ways to connect with Nancy. Make sure to tune in to Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order available on Hulu and Freeform. Remember you're loved, you matter and your butt looks great. I'll catch you next week.