Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome reporter Lauren Conlin and former homicide prosecutor Jarrett Farentino. Together, lauren and Jarrett host the show Primetime Crime that's available on YouTube. They're joining me today to discuss the Kansas mom's case and the format of this episode is a little bit different since we have two exciting guests. So we're doing a roundtable discussion format. So, without further ado, I'd like to officially welcome Lauren and Jarrett to the podcast. Let's go Well. I'd like to officially welcome Lauren Conlon and Jarrett Farentino to True Crime and Headlines. Thank you both so much for joining me today on this episode. Jarrett is a former homicide prosecutor and Lauren is an investigative reporter and together they host the show Primetime Crime. So I'm going to hand it over to you, lauren and Jarrett, so you can give us a little bit of intros, tell us a little bit about yourselves and about the show.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Sure. So I'm Lauren and Jarrett and I randomly were both on an episode of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace and we connected after. Jarrett was like this girl's crazy and I was like this guy's crazy no, I'm just kidding. We connected after and I actually had him on on my podcast, the Outlier, and then we had this idea that we should start a show that could be a live stream that talks about the latest trials, the latest cases, everything that people are talking about, but also everything that people are not talking about, cases that don't get the coverage that they deserve. So we launched that show. We do it every Friday or, I'm sorry, every Wednesday at 8 pm and so far we're we're having a blast meeting all these people and helping all these people. So hopefully we can keep the momentum going and grow it even further.

Speaker 3: 2:33

So, jen, I couldn't say it better myself. So that is how Lauren and I met. I still think she's crazy. That has not. That thought hasn't been disavowed.

Speaker 3: 2:43

But I was a homicide prosecutor for 20 years. I've handled close to 100 homicides and thousands of criminal cases over the course of my career. I really like to talk, I like to analyze and discuss the biggest cases in the country, and you know, lauren's passion for this was immediately apparent to me and I knew that she was someone I could very easily work with and examine these cases with. And I was right. So we're really having a good time. And the other thing I do, I do some documentary work.

Speaker 3: 3:18

I'm on the show Crime Nation on the CW, which I'm very proud of the work they've done, and we're beginning a second season on the CW, which I'm very proud of the work they've done. And we're beginning a second season on the CW network and a lot of the cases we cover there Lauren and I are going to break down as well. So, but it's been a great deal of fun to be able to talk about cases and not have to worry about prosecuting them. It's a lot less stressful and I feel like we're reaching a wider audience, so it's been a great deal of fun.

Speaker 1: 3:46

That's amazing, thank you. Thank you for the intros. I want to take just a second to say that I love the work that you're doing because, as you both know, I'm really big in sharing cases that don't get a lot of coverage and being a voice for the victims and really doing that spin on true crime podcasting, which you don't see that often. You just don't. Unfortunately, it's more for entertainment purposes, but that's why I was so passionate about bringing you both on and sharing this episode with our listeners, so that they can get kind, getting a different perspective of these cases, where we're sharing it kind of from the victim's perspective as well and just being one ethical but two being compassionate. So I'm excited to have you both on.

Speaker 1: 4:34

And so, with that being said, today we're discussing the Kansas mom's murder case and I really want to dive right into the coverage. But before I do that, I want to share some details, just high level details of the case for those that may not be familiar with it. So back in March of this year, 27-year-old Veronica Butler and 39-year-old Jillian Kelly disappeared while on a trip to Oklahoma to pick up Veronica's children from their grandmother, tiffany Adams. After an extensive search on April 14th, the bodies of the two women were found in rural Texas County. There were four suspects initially charged with murder and kidnapping in the case, and recently a fifth suspect was arrested on the same charges.

Speaker 3: 5:23

I'm going to hand it over, I guess, to you, jarrett, we'll start with you. So one of the things first of all, I have been fighting on behalf of moms my entire career. I was raised by a super mom and it's kind of been my thing. So this particular case and the fact that really, as the details emerged, this was a custody battle and this was not your friendly neighborhood grandma that had the kids and the Kansas moms were going to take the kids back for a custody visit this was a bitter, bitter, nasty custody battle that Tiffany Adams and her crew God's Misfits have been engaged alleged to have been engaged in a plot to kill the Kansas moms for since way back in February.

Speaker 3: 6:11

So this is something that has been going on. You know the record speaks of a plot to throw an anvil through Veronica's car and you know this is the level these folks were operating at at no time and I think when you have five people working together, no one said you know this might not be a good idea, which shows the level of commitment they had to this conspiracy. It's really, really it's a wild case and one of the things that Lauren and I try to do is really highlight the victims. We don't take cheap shots at victims and try to get their stories out there. But this case is the Kansas mom's case. But the crew of defendants are known as God's misfits, which is an appropriate title here for these folks no-transcript that these two moms were missing and I was super upset.

Speaker 2: 7:35

I was like, okay, why are these moms missing? The day before Easter I read a little bit of background on them, and Jillian Kelly she was a secretary at a church where her husband was a pastor and Veronica attended that church. And so I thought to myself, well, this isn't normal, they wouldn't go missing the day before Easter. They each have children. Jillian has four children or had, and Veronica had two. And so I think what was interesting to me is you started looking into this case and there's a lot of public records available about the custody battle with Veronica and her ex Wrangler and you dig a little deeper and you find some things where the kids got taken away, but you don't exactly know why. Then you dig a little bit deeper and you see that, okay, well, part of this is Wrangler. He had issues, he got into some trouble and I immediately saw it cannot be Wrangler. He's actually in rehab. So when they went missing, I actually called the Salvation Army where he was supposed to be, and they said he actually cannot speak to anybody outside of this rehab for the first 30 days, so he's had no contact with the outside world. They couldn't really tell me anything else. But immediately, I'm just checking things, you know, off these boxes in my head. Okay, it can't be him, can't be this person, and I think that seeing these documents, you realize all right. Well, his mom has them. This is strange, this is really strange.

Speaker 2: 9:08

And a week went by and we heard that they weren't alive and it was very sad, but it didn't take very long at all for the OSBI to narrow in on Tiffany Adams. But I don't think anybody was prepared for what we were about to learn. Obviously, the suspects look like the devil's rejects. It breaks my heart to think about the last moments of their life. They had to stare at those disgusting faces. Allegedly Sorry, they're alleged. They have not been convicted yet. Obviously they're suspects. But you read these affidavits that came out and that were made public and it's heartbreaking and the fact that a 16-year-old had to essentially tell the police what happened, had to tell on her parents, cora and Cole Twombly's daughter. It was awful and what she said was so detailed. It was so detailed that it, just like I said, it made your stomach turn.

Speaker 2: 10:03

And I have a few local sources still in Oklahoma and Kansas, right on the border and I want them to talk to me and they do, but they will not go on record. They are terrified. They have said there are still quote unquote God's misfits in the area. To answer your question, which I did not answer at all, the God's misfits are still in the area, but they are self-. I did not answer at all. The God's Mids are still in the area, but they are self-proclaimed.

Speaker 2: 10:27

There is another group. This guy Squirrel runs it and he was on Ashley Banfield and Nancy Grace and he's like. I have no affiliation with them. I did not know anything about them. This is my church and the Facebook group had 200 followers or something like that. It was very small, but he was horrified. Zero affiliation. These people did this group themselves and there are other people involved. There are people on this affidavit, a couple where they used to meet at their house and they actually had the children the night that or the night before the kidnappings and murders allegedly happened. So I'm waiting to see what happened with that and what's going to happen with that.

Speaker 2: 11:09

And I'm sure you also know it took them a little bit longer to arrest the fifth suspect, paul Bryce did some digging into him.

Speaker 2: 11:17

He's pretty insane. He said he's not a sovereign citizen. Said he's not a sovereign citizen, he took the time to write a 44 page letter to Antony Blinken denouncing his citizenship and saying the craziest things, jen, like his, his children are part of his sperm and they belong to him and not the government. And it's like look, buddy, I get it. You don't want to vaccinate your kids with the COVID shot? No problem, I don't either. But like I don't need to say that to the Secretary of State. So yeah, it's just, it's crazy, it's the whole thing is insane. But just wrapping this up, I continue to reach out to the Texas County clerk to get these filings, to get the documents, so Jarrett and I can stay up to date on what's happening, because it's going to take a long time. Jarrett said this to me and I think I knew this, but I was still like man, I wish it wasn't true. But it probably will be what Jarrett 2026 before this actually goes to trial.

Speaker 3: 12:27

It's a massive heavy lift because of the novel and nuanced issues that are going to come up. It's going to be and this is a pretty involved case. It's an investigation that first of all, there's information that predates the killing itself, there's plots that predate the killing itself. So you have this pre-murder history in the domestic courts that is relevant to the case. Then you have the act itself. The kidnapping itself took place at scene A, the killing itself may have taken place at scene B, the burial itself took place at scene C and then there is this post-murder conduct afterwards.

Speaker 3: 13:03

So just on the merits of the facts it's a big case. Add to it we have five co-defendants, so it's complicated in its presentation. But what you can glean from the affidavits is Paul and Tiffany, at a minimum, have already made admissions to investigators. Tiffany, at a minimum, have already made admissions to investigators and the Twombly's have already. At least Cole Twombly has already made admissions to his own daughter. So when you have the words of the defendants, essentially you know slicing their own throats. It's very powerful. It simplifies your case. But just looking at the initial filings I mean Lauren and I get every single filing. They're going to fight over every issue. Issue number one was are they all going to be in the same courtroom? How is that going to be accomplished logistically, and things of that nature? So 2026 is an ambitious trial date for these folks.

Speaker 2: 14:06

That pisses me off, because I want to see. I want to see justice before 2026.

Speaker 3: 14:12

I mean we're not going anywhere. In the meantime, they're sitting in jail. In fact, one of the reasons they're in jail, jen, and as every fact that comes out about this crew, it's like more and more interesting and intriguing fact that comes out about this crew. It's like more and more interesting and intriguing. Tiffany Adams made a reference to the judge in the custody case that she knew which way he walked to work. So when that statement was made, you're dealing with individuals that will go to a whole nother level of intimidation and manipulation and disrespect for the courts and their jurisdiction. So when you have a statement like that and you look at the possibility of bail, you say, look, these folks are very dangerous, they're charged with very serious crimes and that statement alone should tell you they are capable of damn near anything, including intimidating the court. So they should be held without bail for this case. So again, although you know we want to see justice fast, you want to see it done right.

Speaker 2: 15:17

Whatever?

Speaker 3: 15:17

If you have to go the legal route, I get it. No, I'm just kidding, no.

Speaker 2: 15:21

And something to be said about Tiffany Adams too, and she was a big fish, small pond. She was on multiple boards hospital boards, school board. I have a feeling she thought she was pretty untouchable. She knew some people in high places and just going back I don't know if you guys talked about this when I was kicked off, but just going back to what happened, I mean Jarrett kind of went over it, but these women, their car was found off the side of the road, just this rural area where there was absolutely nothing, and around the car, pools of blood, a broken hammer, sunglasses.

Speaker 2: 15:56

We later find out there's tasers, there's I mean, it's horrible, there's ratchet straps. It's horrible, there's ratchet straps. And, uh, tad Cullum, who was Tiffany's boyfriend, rented a farm from this guy, jamie Beasley, who, by the way, was horrified when he found out that Tad actually buried these women, you know, on his property. So he, tad, was so stupid he left the whole area where he buried them. There was disturbed dirt everywhere. It was almost just like here. Here they are, x marks, the spot, so stupid. And they the cell phones. Like Tiffany, I mean, her Google search is like you know where to buy disposable cell phones and how to get someone to leave their house. This was back when they were trying to kill Veronica with the levels of levels of taser pain.

Speaker 2: 16:42

Yeah, oh yeah, exactly it's. It's so crazy. So they were really really stupid, really stupid about this whole thing. And Paul Grice, his neighbor, stated that he said to him how does a man, uh, take his family and leave and go to Mexico? And then he said oh, also, he said, how long does DNA last on your clothing? I was at the Twombly's house and I'm afraid that, you know, some DNA would be left on my clothing. And his neighbor is just like, uh, that's a no for me dog. And he went straight to the cops. So these people are not the brightest at all.

Speaker 3: 17:17

And you know they're either very, they're either dumb or don't give a shit. I think their level of commitment to this thing they believe and we don't have the details of whatever it is they believe, but I suspect, based on telegraphing, what I'm seeing in these initial filings, particularly from Cora is it Cora Twombly Her filings there is a justification that Tiffany Adams has manipulated them to believe. And again, I'm speculating based on a little bit of what I've seen. I believe these folks were convinced by Tiffany Adams to carry this out based on some profound justification and they think in their minds that that justification will carry the day for them. They would be OK, based on the reason why they were doing this and may have motivated them and it has something to do with what's in the custody records and some allegations that have been made in the past.

Speaker 3: 18:22

Doesn't mean those allegations are true. Doesn't mean that justification is going to amount to a hill of beans in that courtroom. But you know, in the backwoods when you're in your God's Misfits meetings and you're, it's a cult-esque thing. People let their guard down. Intelligent people have entered into cults. It doesn't necessarily mean they're stupid. They find their identity there. They're committed to the group.

Speaker 2: 18:45

This is their tribe, these people, though I don't know what's that.

Speaker 3: 18:53

These people I don't know about these people think may develop further. I do not think it's going to carry the day, but I got to tell you for a conspiracy of five to go through repeated plans to commit murder and one of them not walk away, one of them not talk. Something more is going on with regard to their belief system and their justification, belief, I really. I mean they know they're leaving. They know the first place they're going to look is for Tiffany. I mean, you can't look at this and the filings and the public fights that have already taken place.

Speaker 3: 19:32

The reason, the reason Jillian was there she was the supervisor for supervised custodial visits. She wasn't like a friend of Veronica's. They were associated, but she wasn't, they weren't besties going out. Jillian was the court appointed, agreed upon supervisor for visits when these visits took place in custody. That means a court has looked at these parents, looked at these children and this is not a judgment, this is a fact and said Veronica, for the time being, your visits with your children are going to be supervised by a third party acceptable to the court. That's what they've said so far. Whatever brought that about, I'm sure factored into the cocktail that Tiffany Adams made and had all her people drink.

Speaker 2: 20:20

Well, I can tell you what that was and and it's. You know, the children's names are protected and they did seal this document after. But there was some kind of abuse that went on with a family member of Veronica's and there was a no contact order in place and the children were in therapy over it and I guess and and look, I don't know if this was they saw this person in passing. I don't know if they went and got ice cream together, if they saw them at the park or they spent a whole day together, but the kids told the counselor they did see this person. So once that happened, the kids were taken away and Tiffany had custody because Wrangler couldn't really handle it at the time. But at the time of the disappearance or, I'm sorry, of the kidnapping and murders, veronica was getting very close to having overnight visits with her kids again. She was getting very close to having them back multiple times a week instead of just one day a week, and Tiffany didn't like this. So she saw what was coming and her regular supervisor her name was Cheryl Brune.

Speaker 2: 21:23

I thought it was really interesting that Cheryl Brune happened to be sick that day, whether or not Tiffany said, hey, don't come. I mean Cheryl has. I've seen her name in affidavits where she hasn't really said much, but yeah, she wasn't there that day. And also, cheryl had nothing bad to say about Veronica. She said, yeah, everything was fine during these visits, the kids love their mom. And yeah, I don't think this was going to sit well with Tiffany. I think she was not going to accept this and I think it's crazy that we're seeing grandparents now do things like this the Dan Markle, the Adelson's it's just, it's horrible. You're like these are not your children, these are your grandchildren. I mean, let the parents deal with this, it's nuts.

Speaker 3: 22:09

Well, so it's clear, veronica was on the path back to those two kids, unencumbered by supervision, but you have to understand in Tiffany's mind if she believed she was their mother, not just their grandmother, these were her kids. She was losing control and she took that information which you discussed this abuse or this contact with that family member brought it to the table of the God's misfits and said we got to prevent this from happening. These are my babies. A mother in the God's misfits has to protect her babies at all costs and that means we got to kill whoever is going to take them away. And you can, that's my speculation. You can bet that's what's going to be said in that court.

Speaker 2: 22:58

Speculation, you can bet that's what's going to be said in that courtroom. Well, I'm also curious and this is also speculation judging by her how do I say this politely the decline in her looks, her face, her ratchet face. Ok, jen, I mean, what you see in 2020 to what you see now is vastly different. It looks like she's aged 30 years. She has an associate that's ATF. He busts up a lot of meth houses there. He is in the news boasting about it. I'm not going to drop his name now because I don't want to make any allegations. That may not be true, but I know they're close and I thought about this Did drugs play a factor? Was she on drugs? Was she totally crazy? Because she looks like she's been taking meth hits to the face?

Speaker 1: 23:44

I agree. I think that, as far as Tiffany feeling like she's losing control and, to your point, jarrett, if she feels like those are her children and she's trying to protect them, I mean, yeah, that could warn enough, especially if she does have mental health issues, possibly allegedly I mean we can see that, based on cultish activity and all the things that she's doing and has done. And I mean, at the end of the day, that's not how you go about these situations. And you're right, lauren, when it comes to some of these grandparents that we're seeing now in some of these cases, like losing their minds over their grandchildren, and I get loving your grandchildren, but I mean, come on, that's just insane. And then what's so sad? I mean they could have arranged for this to happen where Jillian would not have been there.

Speaker 3: 24:47

The one plan as what's being reported in the documents this isn't speculation was they were going to throw and somehow hit Veronica with an anvil through her car. Okay, that plan was frustrated. It didn't happen because she didn't leave her house that day. It's like the simplicity of their plans and the plan got more complicated. So it just goes to show you these folks have no regard for human life, and Tiffany Adams' hate for Veronica was so strong that she didn't care if somebody got in the way they were going to, and I believe that's what happened to Jillian here.

Speaker 2: 25:32

And I was just going to point out there was probably five different supervisors that were alternate. So it's really unfortunate. And I also want to point out we do not know, jen, how they died. We have no idea. There's a six month gag order on that. There's also a gag order on um, the, the police, law enforcement and, uh, the attorneys in the case. So I don't think, I mean, I think maybe it'll be September before we know exactly what happened and I just gosh, I dread that day.

Speaker 3: 26:04

But we do know that there was evidence of a severe injury at the van site. So they note in the affidavit that's exactly what they say. I think Lauren was, there was blood at the scene and it was evidence of. We call that a bloodletting event, basically. But they refer to it in the affidavit as evidence of a severe injury, which tells me there was a lot of blood, you know pools of blood which you can't.

Speaker 2: 26:34

Blood doesn't pool from a stabbing right, it pools from a shooting or maybe a severe bludgeoning. Um well, I've seen it.

Speaker 3: 26:44

Pooling of blood means somebody is very, very badly injured and you know it doesn't happen unless a lot of blood is out. And I mean I've seen it from stabbings. My first murder case was pools of blood and it was a stabbing 19, 19 stab wounds, but it was a stabbing.

Speaker 2: 27:03

That's awful. Well, we also know they were buried in a chest freezer 15 feet underground, so we do know that. But yeah, that's all we know. It's horrible. I can't even imagine being their families. I mean, I know that their families must know how they passed away, but yeah, that's not known to the public.

Speaker 3: 27:26

And I think these you're not seeing. One thing worth noting, jen, on this case you're not seeing a disconnect between the families and the prosecutors here. They're not coming out after the prosecutors, the families you know I've read where they were approached by I think it was News Nation. Brian, into the News Nation had approached the victims families early on and they just said that we're really not in a position to talk at this point, which is good. I mean, you see that and I think I know what Brian. I think he's respectful, he certainly let them. That was good enough for him.

Speaker 3: 28:00

But the reality is we're often seeing these cases where victims and prosecution are not on the same page. You know, the Kohlberger case being one of them. Mr Gonsalves has his own investigators, he has his own press conferences and things of that nature. We have not seen that yet in the Kansas Moms case and I say, yeah, I hope we don't see it. I hope that the DAs keep these folks informed, lock, stock and barrel, move forward with them, because that creates a lot of just, it creates a mess that you don't need in these cases and it's much better if everybody's on the same page.

Speaker 1: 28:38

You know, certain things getting sealed or gag orders. What is one reason I mean, obviously, besides to protect the children or, you know, maybe protect the case because it hasn't gone to trial yet what are other reasons that they would do that?

Speaker 2: 28:51

Law enforcement and they can't speak to the press or anything like that. That's the gag order. The sealing of that was that's different. That that's the gag order. The ceiling of that was that's different. I mean, I will say one thing the gag order actually, or this motion actually named the Nancy Gray show and actually said one of her headlines like I guess Nancy said killer, granny, and they're like this is not fair, everybody should not be able to talk about this. So that that was really kind of funny to me. I'm sorry, cause it's true.

Speaker 1: 29:20

So is that what prompted the gag order then? I mean that was in the motion, that was literally in the motion.

Speaker 2: 29:26

But yeah, they didn't want me talking.

Speaker 3: 29:30

The family documents were sealed and then were unsealed and provided to the parties. Okay that that hearing has been going on. Lauren and I went through those motions. So your question is, why would they have been sealed? Number one they're sealed to protect the kids because all of this attention was now going to be placed on this particular case. So they, in an abundance of caution, would seal those records. They're also sealing those records to prevent any unfair prejudice to the five co-defendants you know not that anybody cares about. You know, like you have to look out for the rights of their fair trial.

Speaker 3: 30:12

Ok, so there are things in those records, undoubtedly claims, allegations, allegations against our victims in this case. Okay, I am sure those records contain claims of Tiffany against Veronica. It's in everybody's best interest that those records get sealed and are dealt with in open court when they become relevant, if they do not in the court of public opinion. So in an abundance of caution good caution the court sealed those records to protect the kids, to protect Veronica and to protect the defendants, so as not to create this pre-trial issue or pre-trial trying of our victims, defendants and the kids here. So I think that's why I think it's a smart move. But now Cora Twombly's lawyers wanted those records and Tiffany Adams objected to it, interestingly enough. So you know there's some stuff in there that she doesn't want out. But that also suggested to us that there may be a little bit of a rift in the uh co-conspirators here, because now all of a sudden they're not on the same page. Cora Twombly wants this information, tiffany Adams says no.

Speaker 2: 31:30

So I want them all to turn on each other like I want them all to battle like seriously. But I mean in in the records and I actually have a lot of them saved initially. But Tiffany was. She was just canceling all these visitations for no reason. She wasn't giving any explanation and she wasn't doing any makeups, and Veronica was honestly at her wits end. It seemed like so. There was. There was a lot going on.

Speaker 2: 31:55

And at one point, wrangler actually tried to get full custody back and he had Tad Cullum speak up for him on his behalf. It's all just very ironic. At this point he worked on Tad's farm and it's like cool, you've literally got a murder defendant, you know, speaking on your behalf at this point, if you look back, so all these people are.

Speaker 3: 32:17

And at one point Tiffany was fighting with Wrangler too, I mean she. So yeah, she was the boss when it came to these kids and nobody, including the court, was going to tell her otherwise. Yeah, I mean, look, we're here because nobody was going to tell her anything. She was going to take matters into her own hands if she had to allegedly, but allegedly allegedly in the hands, if she had to allegedly Allegedly Allegedly in the document, she admitted to it.

Speaker 2: 32:43

Yes, and allegedly, in the affidavit it actually says there is a recording of Tiffany Adams's admission, which you know we haven't heard. But look, jen, when the movie comes out one day, I hope we can all hear it, because, I mean, I think I'm also. I have a fascination with human behavior and I just I want to know why. You know you call yourself God's misfits. There's clearly a biblical connection in your own twisted brain. What kind of Christian does that? What kind of Christian are you? You give the rest of us a bad name. So, uh, I'm just, you know I'm. I'm really interested to know what's going on in their heads right now. Are they remorseful? Are they sad? Are they sad for themselves and what they? You know what I mean? I just I want to know. Well, you could answer that question?

Speaker 3: 33:29

I would be. If this was my case, I would want weekly copies of those prison visits and the phone calls and I'd be listening to. What I used to do was convert the phone calls of my inmates onto like audio recordings and I would run every morning and just listen to what they were saying and you would learn so much. It's just a way to. I don't know if that was healthy for me to do it that way, but I did.

Speaker 2: 33:54

Do most prosecutors do that.

Speaker 3: 33:57

I don't know, but I don't know if I would want to know what, because Tiffany strikes me as somebody that can't keep her mouth shut, you know, and now that they're separated, they're they're separated in the jail too, so they can't talk to each other. They're talking either through intermediaries, which they have no choice then to say certain things, despite the fact that the line is recorded, or they're just venting frustration as they sit there and figure out what did I do? I cannot believe. I let this lady talk me into this yeah, exactly, I'm just thinking about that.

Speaker 2: 34:32

So, like every phone call that's recorded in jail and prison, we we know that it's. It's recorded and it sits somewhere maybe not an iCloud. Whatever they have in the jail, whatever they use, you have to request this Jared as a prosecutor or as an attorney. You don't just get this just sent to you or anything weekly. You have to ask for it. Okay, so I'm assuming not everybody, not every single phone call is heard from every single defender?

Speaker 3: 35:00

No, the majority of them are not, so you know who the hell has the time to listen to all that nonsense.

Speaker 2: 35:05

But that's a good idea. Why wouldn't they?

Speaker 3: 35:09

I mean it's because when you have like 30 cases you're going to do, I mean you got to have a life but the reality is I've been able to gain a great strategic advantage over defendants and tremendous evidence in those calls and letters and other things. Because inevitably they don't have a choice, they've got to let their guard down and sometimes they get a moment Remember those Casey Anthony tapes with their parents and all that stuff.

Speaker 2: 35:36

I mean you know, I'm thinking about the crumbly tapes too. I'm just like think about they didn't listen to those, him, whatever, talking about the prosecutor, that's.

Speaker 3: 35:45

I had a case where this we had a high ranking member of a gang, a female, and she was neat looking. Um uh, she came into court dressed in white. You would never think she would arrange for the execution of her girlfriend and her girlfriend's cousin, right. So she comes into court and she was very dot on the stand. She was yes sir, no sir. Then I play a recording of her talking to a colleague of hers in the gang. It was like you were, it was really total gang speak, total street speak. And the jury couldn't believe I mean they just you could. It was a palpable reaction. It's like that's who she is.

Speaker 2: 36:31

Do not I want to hear it one second that would be really interesting.

Speaker 1: 36:38

But that's people they put on a facade, though that's a manipulation tactic, because they want you to believe, or she wanted you to believe, that she's this meek person, that there's no way she would have done that, and it's just not. It's just not the truth, it's just not facts.

Speaker 3: 36:53

Right and that was an example of just powerful we had. Even in the Selinsky case there were just salin. The salinski case took nine years to get to trial. So you can imagine how many visits over those years we had to listen to and I would have a box next to me during the trial and I would like motion to the defense. Like all the recordings were cataloged. They were cataloged right.

Speaker 3: 37:15

But I found a recording where Selinsky was accused of basically killing a good friend of his OK, and in a meeting, the final meeting with his stepdad, who was a formidable figure in his life, he says to his stepdad and to his brother, ronnie, who gives an F if I did it, do you give an F? If I did it? And if I'm facing, if I'm being framed for killing a friend of mine, would you say that to the last time you talked to your stepfather? I mean it was when that recording was played on the first day of the defense's case. I got that recording in.

Speaker 3: 37:54

It was like a bomb went off in the courtroom. They're like what, like why would you say that? And and and again, it was that it was that the defense component of the case. So that stuff is often very powerful. It was one of the great and I think salinski was joking when he said it maybe, but it certainly didn't sound, it wasn't good for him and wasn't a good look and I think he, he you could see in his reaction he knew it was a misstep and it was years prior to the trial, but it was not good.

Speaker 1: 38:26

Yeah, I'm really curious to see how this trial goes, I mean especially because there's so many.

Speaker 3: 38:33

Lauren and I said all five of them are not taking the trial. Paul has already made a statement. He was charged later. Again, speculation. I'm thinking there may be a deal here, although if he's still hanging on to that sovereign citizen stuff it could be a problem. But somebody's going to strike a deal here. You know. Clearly Tiffany Adams is on a different page than the Twomblies or Cora Twombly. At this point Somebody will come to the table. I'm thinking if I was the DA in this case, I would go see the Twomblies and I would say look, you put your 16-year-old daughter's head in the mouth of the lion here. Do you want your daughter to testify against you in trial? No, Do you know that you're going to absolutely be convicted? The second she testifies against you. Yes, okay, let's save her the trouble. Let's admit what you did. You testify against tiffany. Your daughter knows you told the truth. And all of a sudden there's two defendants out. Paul already admitted cut a deal with him. Now you're down to tad. And tiffany t and t.

Speaker 2: 39:34

You know you try them together and I think that they're gonna enforce capital punishment. I do. I think that and I we don't need to get into that. Obviously, jarrett and I have many conversations about capital punishment and how. We don't really know how we feel sometimes, but I think that I think this it also sends a message to say, yeah, it's, it's on the table. The table.

Speaker 3: 39:57

Yeah, and that may hint. Now I've had cases where capital, capital punishment, whether prosecutors admitted or not, is often utilized as a tool to foster a plea. So if all five of these folks the likelihood of all five of these folks being put to death, if they're tried together, you know it could happen and I think they're think they have to be, think they're all relatively young. I think Tiffany's the oldest in 54. Yeah, but. But Cora's 44. Tad is 43, believe it or not, it doesn't look like he's 43. Cole is 50. So Paul is Paul's 31. I mean, yeah, so they have to be. Yeah, so I don't know. I think that the death penalty creates a little bit of a wrinkle as far as who do you go to, who do you cut a deal with? But yeah, and it leaves your witness exposed, because they're going to say to paul, let's say it falls the witness. Paul, you saved your own ass to come in here and lie.

Speaker 2: 40:59

Now you know, but yeah, and I also want to point out, just from the outside, and I mean, you've got six children, six kids without moms who are, you know, jillian's kids were a bit older. I cannot imagine how angry they are and how they probably are in therapy right now and their trajectory of life is so different. They, you know, they, they love their mom. I, you know, I did some Facebook research and it's, it was horrible. They were so cute. Jillian would tag her daughters and all these posts and it just, it was just so, it was just beautiful, honestly. And, and Veronica, her kids were so little. They were, you know, younger than my kids. I think her kids were like, you know, maybe eight and six or something.

Speaker 2: 41:48

Don't quote me on that, they could be a bit older, but yeah, it's, it's bad, it's very bad. What, what was done and what these kids are going to have to go through, and it really, it really breaks my heart because you know, when something happens to a parent, children, like their lives, could go in any direction. You know they could go. They could go down the right path or they can go down the wrong path. So I think that's something that has to be addressed here as well that these, these kids go to bed every single night without a mom because the other thing that complicates that too, jen, is that it's their own grandmother, like it's that they had.

Speaker 3: 42:23

Like these kids were ping pong balling back and forth. To begin with they were being used in a chess game between tiffany and veronica and wrangler. Now tiffany is alleged to have killed their mother, so now they lose their grandmother. They killed their mother, so now they lose their grandmother. They lose their mother, wrangler. God only knows. Hopefully his rehab goes well and his family. Somebody could do something with these kids going forward. But I mean wow. I mean how does it get any worse? And not to mention, you know, the Twombly's. Leave behind children and a daughter who's a witness in the camera I mean it's nuts. Leave behind children and a daughter who's a witness in the camp. I mean it's nuts. When you start looking at the tentacles of this thing like this, this impacted almost an entire community and the God's misfits church, I'm sure, is done.

Speaker 2: 43:10

Oh yeah, squirrels like no things. I'm good, I'm good on that, but no, I I did hear from some sources that Wrangler is doing well and he's he's trying to get it together. Well, I did hear from some sources that Wrangler is doing well and he's he's trying to get it together.

Speaker 1: 43:23

Well, that's good. I mean, I know this. This is alleged, but from what I did read, supposedly, supposedly. Again, this is alleged. This is speculation. This could be totally wrong, but Wrangler had made a comment to his grandmother about. But Wrangler had made a comment to his grandmother about, I don't know Tiffany possibly taking care of things with Veronica and it wouldn't be something that they'd have to worry about anymore as far as the custody battle. So I'm sure that's probably somewhere in the sealed documents or whatever.

Speaker 2: 43:53

No, it's in the affidavit that was stated, but I don't think that was. I think that Tiffany talked a lot of trash, so I don't think anyone took that super seriously at the time. I think that this was after the fact. It just was supporting the evidence that she did it. But yeah, I think a lot of people were like, well, wait, if he thought that, why didn't he go to authorities, why didn't he do something about it? Well, I think, again, his mom talked a lot of shit.

Speaker 1: 44:19

Yeah, that's true, or he was scared too. I mean, she was clearly very intimidating. She was able to intimidate an entire community of people and scare them into thinking that they needed to do this. It's just, the whole case is just sad. It's just sad and I'm really curious to see just kind of the outcome and how this, how this, plays out over the course of time.

Speaker 2: 44:40

I I will definitely be following up on it and yeah, so man yeah, it's sad, but thank you so much for uh shining a light on it with your platform. I know that the people in oklahoma and kansas, the locals, they really appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 44:57

Yeah, I gotta say, it looks like the investigators are doing a really good job and the filings thus far are well written. They're not missing issues Like I'm like yeah, this is what I'd be doing, and if I was defending these folks I'd be doing the same thing. So you know we're not dealing with. You know, people in the sticks that don't know what they're doing. They appear to be very sophisticated when it comes to this. And people in the sticks that don't know what they're doing. They appear to be very sophisticated when it comes to this, and this is not easy. I've had multiple defendant cases like this, not quite five. I've had three, and three is a lot to deal with. Five is you've got to get somebody to take a deal, because, think about it, it's five cross-examinations of your witnesses. Your witnesses. I mean you put on a witness and then you sit there while five defense attorneys can't even imagine I cannot imagine it becomes redundant after a while.

Speaker 3: 45:50

But I mean, come on, you know, imagine telling a witness, a 16 year old. Oh, by the way, there's five defense lawyers that are going to cross-examine you for hours after.

Speaker 2: 46:00

I know, I know I'm so curious how they're going to do that. When I mean so they're going to have to have five separate trials, I would assume, but maybe they'll.

Speaker 3: 46:09

They'll get some it all that has not really been hammered out yet. Right, some of the hearings are together for the procedural work. It looks like the preliminary hearings are going to be separate and the judge is reserving ruling on whether or not the trial is going to be together. That's, but really it bears on whether or not there's deals made with some of them.

Speaker 2: 46:32

They're all charged with the same thing. So, and that's what's so. I don't want to say it's like crazy, but it's like you think about it and it's like, yeah, they all five participated. We don't know exactly how yet, but it's also like, yeah, tiffany, I don't know, do I do? I think that Tiffany should get a little more. I actually I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Speaker 3: 46:52

I'm saying it out loud, I don't know why and we've talked about this the reason why they're charged the same is if you're involved in a conspiracy and you take these affirmative steps in support of the conspiracy, you are responsible for the entirety of the conspiracy, All of the criminal conduct. Whether you were a principal or an accomplice, is something that could be kind of vetted out later. Yeah, you know all five cannot have the same level of culpability, Realistically. I mean, you know all five don't typically participate in the actual killing. You know it's typically one. Primarily, it sounds like the car was diverted off the road, for example, so somebody would have had to do that.

Speaker 2: 47:35

Okay, However, that was well, we know that was Cole and Cora, because their truck was down there, and that Tiffany and Tad were and Paul were at Jamie Beasley's property. We do know that. I mean, and I the filing that uh came out yesterday they're they're testing for DNA the taser, they're testing the buttons on it and the ratchet straps. And Jared and I were talking earlier and I was like man, did they choke them with the ratchet? I just I cannot imagine it and you know it's like I don't want to know, but I'm sick of thinking in my head all these things that could have happened to them.

Speaker 3: 48:12

It's, it's just Well, those details are going to come out and the officers know assuming that Paul told them the truth, um, or tiffany told them the truth they're going to know the mechanisms of how this was actually done, you know, and who actually did it, which, again, if that's the case, they know who to go to to put in the witness chair too yeah, man, well, this, this was an amazing conversation.

Speaker 1: 48:41

I loved having this discussion, having it kind of open, and thank you, lauren and Jarrett, for coming on the podcast today. I really appreciate it. I want to give you an opportunity to maybe talk about some of the things that you guys are working on outside of primetime crime or primetime crime, if there's anything exciting coming up so our listeners can make sure that they keep up to date.

Speaker 2: 49:02

Just watch our show every Wednesday on YouTube. You should subscribe, like at primetime crime show. It's at 8 PM. Uh, and Jared and I you know we Jared does the lawyer thing during the week. Still, I have the outlier podcast and I have a another YouTube channel, pop crime TV. I still do some writing and I still do some pop culture and entertainment. I've definitely taken a step back from doing the grueling red carpets because I'm way more into, uh, this now just investigative reporting and everything. But I do like to to cover some entertainment and pop culture, just to give my brain a break. It's a lot of heavy stuff and it's it's yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker 1: 49:45

Well, I'll make sure I put all of your guys links and the ways for everyone to connect with you in the show notes below. But thank you guys again for coming on. I'd love to invite you to come on again to talk about some additional cases. Thanks, Jen.

Speaker 3: 49:58

Thank you guys so much, great to meet you and great to be on with you.

Speaker 1: 50:02

Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode. I'll catch you next week and remember you're loved, you matter and your butt looks great.